Should ISIS fighters/wives/children be repatriated?

[epronovost]

Doing propaganda for ISIS doesn't make you a combattant of ISIS. It can make you a civilian working for the news and communication bureau of ISIS. Those who made the adds and propaganda of the NAZI weren't combattant. They were civilians. Recruiting people for ISIS and encouraging people to immigrate within its territory isn't a combat position, not more then immigration personnel in any country are part of its military. ISIS hitself wasn't only trying to recruit combattant. They were also searching for doctors, teachers, mechanic, engineer. There was a civil society within ISIS held territory. Some of which were happy being there. She wen't specifically in Syria to join ISIS which, according to herself is a nation, not an army. You cannot consider ISIS as a nation when it serves your purpose and and only a terrorist group in the others. It's either ALWAYS a terror group or ALWAYS a de facto nation. In my opinion, she wasn't part of a nation, but of a terrorist organisation and she's American. Bring her back and lock her up after a fair trial. I don't think she represent a great danger to society either. She received no insurgency training, neither did she participated in combat. After a decade or two in prison, she could get out and represent no persistent danger. 40 years old women aren't exactly the most at risk demographic to engage in terrorist activities.

[Shell B]

Give me a break. Intelligence and dissemination of propaganda are the jobs of soldiers and politicians. Pick one. She's it.

[Yonadav]

Doing propaganda for ISIS doesn't make you a combattant of ISIS. It can make you a civilian working for the news and communication bureau of ISIS. Those who made the adds and propaganda of the NAZI weren't combattant. They were civilians. Recruiting people for ISIS and encouraging people to immigrate within its territory isn't a combat position, not more then immigration personnel in any country are part of its military. ISIS hitself wasn't only trying to recruit combattant. They were also searching for doctors, teachers, mechanic, engineer. There was a civil society within ISIS held territory. Some of which were happy being there. She wen't specifically in Syria to join ISIS which, according to herself is a nation, not an army. You cannot consider ISIS as a nation when it serves your purpose and and only a terrorist group in the others. It's either ALWAYS a terror group or ALWAYS a de facto nation. In my opinion, she wasn't part of a nation, but of a terrorist organisation and she's American. Bring her back and lock her up after a fair trial. I don't think she represent a great danger to society either. She received no insurgency training, neither did she participated in combat. After a decade or two in prison, she could get out and represent no persistent danger. 40 years old women aren't exactly the most at risk demographic to engage in terrorist activities.

Part of her propaganda campaign was calling for American Muslims to kill Americans when they were gathered together on Veteran's Day and Memorial Day.

“Americans wake up! Men and women altogether. You have much to do while you live under our greatest enemy, enough of your sleeping!” she once wrote, according to The Guardian. “Go on drivebys, and spill all of their blood, or rent a big truck and drive all over them. Veterans, Patriots, Memorial, etc day … Kill them.”

That's warfare. She was actively engaged in warfare. She's an enemy combatant. She burned her passport with the specific intention of becoming an enemy combatant. That is exactly what US law describes as relinquishing one's citizenship.

It is people like you who make the best argument for why we can't let her return to the US. You're already defending her. You want to buy her weak excuses. If she comes back to the US, she had better get a prison sentence that is so long that everyone has forgotten about her long before her time is served. Because quite frankly, Americans aren't responsible for what they do to her if she gets a slap on the wrist. Some poor American who has never been in trouble before isn't going to be able to stand her walking around free as a bird, and they are going to go extra-judicial on her ass. It's what she deserves.

Women in the middle east think that women in the west are weak. I am absolutely certain that Hoda Muthana thinks that you are weak, and will buy her BS. And she's right. You've already bought her BS. It's what she is counting on. When she walks out of a courtroom with a slap on the wrist, someone is going to go extra-judicial on her. And if that happens, I hope that a whole bunch of us have the courage to go turn ourselves in, claiming that we intended to do the same thing, and the other guy just beat us to it.

[The Valkyrie]

By repatriated you mean "hanged" right?

[The Grand Nudger]

Although a person's service in the armed forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of U.S. law, such action could serve as a predicate act for the relinquishment of U.S. citizenship under 349(a)(3) of the INA [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] under two circumstances.  Section 349(a)(3) provides for loss of U.S. nationality if a U.S national voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. nationality enters or serves in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed forces of any foreign state as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer.

It would take a trained military defector to satisfy those conditions.  That's exactly who those narrowly tailored provisions were designed for.  If I defected (and got a decent spot), I would be subject.  Some Girl on Facebook™....not so much.

CO/NCO is a thing, not anything, not everybody. There are a small handful of NCO candidates on this board...over decades, for example. No CO's that I'm aware of (but send me a pm and Ill show the proper deference from now on )

Hooah?!?

[epronovost]

@Yonadav

If she's an enemy combatant, at the end of the conflict, when the US president will declare the Islamic State of Syria defeated, she will go free because that's what happen to enemy combatant at the end of a conflict unless they have commited war crimes. She did not. You don't want her to be judged as an enemy combatant for this reason. You want her judged as a member of a terrorist organisation. Since she's low level and never carried out any attack, only propaganda and incitment, she will not get an enormous sentence, but still a fairly severe one if only due to her fame. That's why I think that under such an accusation, she will probably get something like 20 years of prison and will probably be liberated sooner then that on good conduct. 20 years of prison is actually the maximum she can get according the US laws since she only provided support and resources and never carried out any attack herself. The job of the court isn't to appease the bloodlust of the civilian population, but render justice. That's one of the most important difference between a liberal democracy and ISIS justice system. Bring her back, judge her for her crime, not some imaginary fantasy, and condamned her in accordance with the law. No, life in prison is extremely unlikely and the death penalty is pretty much out of the question due to the extend of her crime. Just hope that like many political revolutionnary, when she will hit her 40's, she will deradicalise and turn into your "casual", non criminal, religious fundamentalist. There has already been a lot of travesty of justice in this "War Against Terror", the US doesn't need a new one. Other countries should do the same. It's not the job of the Syrian government or that of the Federation of Northern Syria to deal with "murder tourists". Let's pickup our trash and deal with it like grown ups.

PS: I am a man, it seems you misgendered me in your last paragraph, unless I got something wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

If we as a nation, are unwilling to provide due process to the accused, then the innocent are under threat as well.

An attack against you, for any reason or no reason, is an attack against us all.  

I agree. We cannot say we value ideas of courts and juries, then skip that because we are rightfully angry. Doing the right thing isn't about one person or one accusation, but a long term idea that prevents us from becoming mob rule, or tyrannical.

Doing the right thing only matters when you're conflicted.  It's easy to do the right thing when there are few or no other options. With this girl, for example...if someone sent her to me I'd just slit her throat, no hesitation....but that's the wrong response, and it's important to realize that regardless of how strongly one feels it.

That's why I'm not in charge of anything - my first reaction is usually the worst reaction.

[Fireball]

Although a person's service in the armed forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of U.S. law, such action could serve as a predicate act for the relinquishment of U.S. citizenship under 349(a)(3) of the INA [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] under two circumstances.  Section 349(a)(3) provides for loss of U.S. nationality if a U.S national voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. nationality enters or serves in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed forces of any foreign state as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer.

It would take a trained military defector to satisfy those conditions.  That's exactly who those narrowly tailored provisions were designed for.  If I defected (and got a decent spot), I would be subject.  Some Girl on Facebook™....not so much.

CO/NCO is a thing, not anything, not everybody.  There are a small handful of NCO candidates on this board...over decades, for example.  No CO's that I'm aware of (but send me a pm and Ill show the proper deference from now on )

Hooah?!?

I remember one time at work where one of the quality inspectors had risen to Sergeant in the USMC. He was just chatting away with one of the quality engineers when the subject of military service came up, and the engineer let it out that he had been a Major in the USAF. The ex-Marine (yeah, lol, I know that there is no such thing as an ex-Marine) got all kinds of flustered because he didn't know that he should be calling this guy "Sir" up until then. Once I was out of the military (E-5, btw, before the court-martial) I didn't give a shit about rank, I wasn't in the military anymore. I got chastised by a Chief one time for having my hat in my back pocket and walking past a couple of officers without saluting. I even put my hat back on...not. I was so fucking short at the time that all anyone could see was my hat on top of my shoes.

[adey67]

If you go willingly from your country to join isis in whatever capacity and your country is engaged in the struggle against isis you are a fucking traitor end of story, do not pass go do not collect £/$ 200.

[The Grand Nudger]

Pretty much, but who tries a traitor?  Unless we're willing to officially abdicate that responsibility to a syrian court.........