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Active shooter in NZ
#31
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 7:56 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 7:21 am)ignoramus Wrote: A racist psychotic simpleton who has managed to filter all his life's problems to a bunch of random innocent people during their time of prayer.

But isn't that the end game for all shooters like this?...

And they're all usually under the radar... until it's too late sadly.

They're "low priority" until they pop up. That's the problem, we're not enough of a police state to keep tabs on every loony out there.

I don't think that they are low priority. We try not to be a police state. If we become a police state because of guys like this, we're going to be detaining a whole bunch of people for murky reasons. One poster in this forum did spend quite a bit of time detained for his association with someone who was suspect. That's what happens in police states. And then people join opposition to the police state, and things get really weird. So it isn't really a matter of some fringe wackos being low priority. It is what will happen if we start taking really strong measures to get them before they have done anything-- we'll start detaining a bunch of people who haven't done anything for progressively murkier reasons.
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#32
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 8:15 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I also object on calling him "mentally ill".

This is a terrorist, fair and square. His ass should be executed in public.

It is possible to be disturbed and a terrorist too. Far too often the word "mental illness" gets defined as cartoon crazy. NO, you can  be quite lucid and sane and still be disturbed enough to do sick shit like he did. I m not downplaying it.  You have to be disturbed to do something like that, regardless of motive. He was a terrorist yes.


I suffer from mental illness. I am quite sane though. I am not desperate or disturbed or indoctrinated. That asshole was. 

That asshole was a terrorist, but he was still disturbed and indoctrinated.
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#33
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 8:40 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 8:15 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I also object on calling him "mentally ill".

This is a terrorist, fair and square. His ass should be executed in public.

It is possible to be disturbed and a terrorist too. Far too often the word "mental illness" gets defined as cartoon crazy. NO, you can  be quite lucid and sane and still be disturbed enough to do sick shit like he did. I m not downplaying it.  You have to be disturbed to do something like that, regardless of motive. He was a terrorist yes.


I suffer from mental illness. I am quite sane though. I am not desperate or disturbed or indoctrinated. That asshole was. 

That asshole was a terrorist, but he was still disturbed and indoctrinated.

I don't know, dude. I'm with Atlas on this. No professional has done a psychoanalysis on this guy yet. He is not necessarily disturbed or indoctrinated. He might be just a guy who really believes that a war needs to be waged against Islamic immigrants. He can consider himself to be a soldier toward that end without being disturbed. He would be no more disturbed than a Native American in the 18th century who attacked white settlements because he believed that the spread of the white settlers had to be stopped.

He attacked with no exit plan, and we should probably be grateful for that, at least. We're really in trouble if these guys start adopting guerrilla hit and run tactics. The guy is a terrorist, but he seems to not be a member of a group that is organized for tactics and strategy.  I don't know a thing about his state of mind and neither do you. Calling him disturbed and indoctrinated is jumping the gun, and is sort of providing him with an excuse (like that used by the ISIS women who are now claiming that they were just dumb brainwashed girls).
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#34
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:06 am)Yonadav Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 8:40 am)Brian37 Wrote: It is possible to be disturbed and a terrorist too. Far too often the word "mental illness" gets defined as cartoon crazy. NO, you can  be quite lucid and sane and still be disturbed enough to do sick shit like he did. I m not downplaying it.  You have to be disturbed to do something like that, regardless of motive. He was a terrorist yes.


I suffer from mental illness. I am quite sane though. I am not desperate or disturbed or indoctrinated. That asshole was. 

That asshole was a terrorist, but he was still disturbed and indoctrinated.

I don't know, dude. I'm with Atlas on this. No professional has done a psychoanalysis on this guy yet. He is not necessarily disturbed or indoctrinated. He might be just a guy who really believes that a war needs to be waged against Islamic immigrants. He can consider himself to be a soldier toward that end without being disturbed. He would be no more disturbed than a Native American in the 18th century who attacked white settlements because he believed that the spread of the white settlers had to be stopped.

He attacked with no exit plan, and we should probably be grateful for that, at least. We're really in trouble if these guys start adopting guerrilla hit and run tactics. The guy is a terrorist, but he seems to not be a member of a group that is organized for tactics and strategy.  I don't know a thing about his state of mind and neither do you. Calling him disturbed and indoctrinated is jumping the gun, and is sort of providing him with an excuse (like that used by the ISIS women who are now claiming that they were just dumb brainwashed girls).

You are both missing my point.

1. He was disturbed. Mentally healthy people do not go on killing sprees. They don't join Isis either.

This doesnt even have to be about religion.

Say a guy suffers from depression, cant keep a job, gets fired, next day goes in with a firearm and murders several co workers. He is mentally ill, not crazy, but quite sane suffering from depression. Also say for example, If someone was abused as a kid, they can grow up quite sane but suffer the mental affects of the abuse growing up, and end up being violent themselves. In both of those cases you can have  a very sane person, who knows what they are doing is wrong, but at the same time be quite disturbed. Not all mental illness means you cant tell right from wrong. 

The guy planned months in advance, so he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was a terrorist. But something disturbed him enough to lead him down that path.

But there is a reason regardless we don't hear about mass shootings that much in Australia or NZ, unlike America their populations have a very healthy attitude about firearms and keeping them out of the wrong hands. So things like this are very rare over there.

I am very worried right now about some of our Christian right wingers killing Muslims here in America because of this. I am also worried that maybe a Muslim here might want to retaliate. But one lady official in NZ did the right thing right off the bat. She said the Muslims who came there were just coming for a better life, and and were welcome there and were part of the nation. She also said about the terrorist, he  was not one of them(meaning part of the nation's ideals) nor was his kind of hate and violence welcome there.

Sad though, been watching the news all morning, has anyone seen a tweet or public statement from Trump condemning this? I haven't seen any statement coming from him as of yet. Not that he'd mean it. Any other president prior would be quick to condemn it, and certainly wouldn't have spent years vilifying an entire religion. This Christian terrorist I do believe had quoted Trump.
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#35
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:24 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 9:06 am)Yonadav Wrote: I don't know, dude. I'm with Atlas on this. No professional has done a psychoanalysis on this guy yet. He is not necessarily disturbed or indoctrinated. He might be just a guy who really believes that a war needs to be waged against Islamic immigrants. He can consider himself to be a soldier toward that end without being disturbed. He would be no more disturbed than a Native American in the 18th century who attacked white settlements because he believed that the spread of the white settlers had to be stopped.

He attacked with no exit plan, and we should probably be grateful for that, at least. We're really in trouble if these guys start adopting guerrilla hit and run tactics. The guy is a terrorist, but he seems to not be a member of a group that is organized for tactics and strategy.  I don't know a thing about his state of mind and neither do you. Calling him disturbed and indoctrinated is jumping the gun, and is sort of providing him with an excuse (like that used by the ISIS women who are now claiming that they were just dumb brainwashed girls).

You are both missing my point.

1. He was disturbed. Mentally healthy people do not go on killing sprees. They don't join Isis either.

This doesnt even have to be about religion.

Say a guy suffers from depression, cant keep a job, gets fired, next day goes in with a firearm and murders several co workers. He is mentally ill, not crazy, but quite sane suffering from depression. Also say for example, If someone was abused as a kid, they can grow up quite sane but suffer the mental affects of the abuse growing up, and end up being violent themselves. In both of those cases you can have  a very sane person, who knows what they are doing is wrong, but at the same time be quite disturbed. Not all mental illness means you cant tell right from wrong. 

The guy planned months in advance, so he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was a terrorist. But something disturbed him enough to lead him down that path.

But there is a reason regardless we don't hear about mass shootings that much in Australia or NZ, unlike America their populations have a very healthy attitude about firearms and keeping them out of the wrong hands. So things like this are very rare over there.

I am very worried right now about some of our Christian right wingers killing Muslims here in America because of this. I am also worried that maybe a Muslim here might want to retaliate. But one lady official in NZ did the right thing right off the bat. She said the Muslims who came there were just coming for a better life, and and were welcome there and were part of the nation. She also said about the terrorist, he  was not one of them(meaning part of the nation's ideals) nor was his kind of hate and violence welcome there.

Sad though, been watching the news all morning, has anyone seen a tweet or public statement from Trump condemning this? I haven't seen any statement coming from him as of yet. Not that he'd mean it. Any other president prior would be quick to condemn it, and certainly wouldn't have spent years vilifying an entire religion. This Christian terrorist I do believe had quoted Trump.

1.  How do you know he planned it for months?

2.  We call that 'lady official' the prime minister.

3.  Yes, Trump has tweeted 'warmest sympathy' and offered 'best wishes', whatever the fuck THAT means.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#36
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:24 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 9:06 am)Yonadav Wrote: I don't know, dude. I'm with Atlas on this. No professional has done a psychoanalysis on this guy yet. He is not necessarily disturbed or indoctrinated. He might be just a guy who really believes that a war needs to be waged against Islamic immigrants. He can consider himself to be a soldier toward that end without being disturbed. He would be no more disturbed than a Native American in the 18th century who attacked white settlements because he believed that the spread of the white settlers had to be stopped.

He attacked with no exit plan, and we should probably be grateful for that, at least. We're really in trouble if these guys start adopting guerrilla hit and run tactics. The guy is a terrorist, but he seems to not be a member of a group that is organized for tactics and strategy.  I don't know a thing about his state of mind and neither do you. Calling him disturbed and indoctrinated is jumping the gun, and is sort of providing him with an excuse (like that used by the ISIS women who are now claiming that they were just dumb brainwashed girls).

You are both missing my point.

1. He was disturbed. Mentally healthy people do not go on killing sprees. They don't join Isis either.

This doesnt even have to be about religion.

Say a guy suffers from depression, cant keep a job, gets fired, next day goes in with a firearm and murders several co workers. He is mentally ill, not crazy, but quite sane suffering from depression. Also say for example, If someone was abused as a kid, they can grow up quite sane but suffer the mental affects of the abuse growing up, and end up being violent themselves. In both of those cases you can have  a very sane person, who knows what they are doing is wrong, but at the same time be quite disturbed. Not all mental illness means you cant tell right from wrong. 

The guy planned months in advance, so he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was a terrorist. But something disturbed him enough to lead him down that path.

But there is a reason regardless we don't hear about mass shootings that much in Australia or NZ, unlike America their populations have a very healthy attitude about firearms and keeping them out of the wrong hands. So things like this are very rare over there.

I am very worried right now about some of our Christian right wingers killing Muslims here in America because of this. I am also worried that maybe a Muslim here might want to retaliate. But one lady official in NZ did the right thing right off the bat. She said the Muslims who came there were just coming for a better life, and and were welcome there and were part of the nation. She also said about the terrorist, he  was not one of them(meaning part of the nation's ideals) nor was his kind of hate and violence welcome there.

Sad though, been watching the news all morning, has anyone seen a tweet or public statement from Trump condemning this? I haven't seen any statement coming from him as of yet. Not that he'd mean it. Any other president prior would be quick to condemn it, and certainly wouldn't have spent years vilifying an entire religion. This Christian terrorist I do believe had quoted Trump.

Mentally healthy people go on killing sprees all the time. Just because you're disturbed doesn't make you a mental health expert. 

People go to war. They aren't disturbed. They go to war for reasons. They are completely rational. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Until a professional has diagnosed this guy with psychological problems, he's just a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. He chose to go to war. He's absolutely responsible for his actions. Don't try to blame someone else for indoctrinating him. Don't try to blame mental illness. Since all of us here agree that he's not a freedom fighter, then he's just a terrorist.
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#37
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 9:24 am)Brian37 Wrote: You are both missing my point.

1. He was disturbed. Mentally healthy people do not go on killing sprees. They don't join Isis either.

This doesnt even have to be about religion.

Say a guy suffers from depression, cant keep a job, gets fired, next day goes in with a firearm and murders several co workers. He is mentally ill, not crazy, but quite sane suffering from depression. Also say for example, If someone was abused as a kid, they can grow up quite sane but suffer the mental affects of the abuse growing up, and end up being violent themselves. In both of those cases you can have  a very sane person, who knows what they are doing is wrong, but at the same time be quite disturbed. Not all mental illness means you cant tell right from wrong. 

The guy planned months in advance, so he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was a terrorist. But something disturbed him enough to lead him down that path.

But there is a reason regardless we don't hear about mass shootings that much in Australia or NZ, unlike America their populations have a very healthy attitude about firearms and keeping them out of the wrong hands. So things like this are very rare over there.

I am very worried right now about some of our Christian right wingers killing Muslims here in America because of this. I am also worried that maybe a Muslim here might want to retaliate. But one lady official in NZ did the right thing right off the bat. She said the Muslims who came there were just coming for a better life, and and were welcome there and were part of the nation. She also said about the terrorist, he  was not one of them(meaning part of the nation's ideals) nor was his kind of hate and violence welcome there.

Sad though, been watching the news all morning, has anyone seen a tweet or public statement from Trump condemning this? I haven't seen any statement coming from him as of yet. Not that he'd mean it. Any other president prior would be quick to condemn it, and certainly wouldn't have spent years vilifying an entire religion. This Christian terrorist I do believe had quoted Trump.

1.  How do you know he planned it for months?

2.  We call that 'lady official' the prime minister.

3.  Yes, Trump has tweeted 'warmest sympathy' and offered 'best wishes', whatever the fuck THAT means.

Boru

1. That is what I am hearing on cable news. The guy also had a long rambling manifesto. And the sicko had a body came and went live on social media while doing it. That takes planning. 

2. Ok, I didn't catch that part while watching the news. 

3. I knew Trump would be half assed about it. And only in a tweet so far. Obama, Bush Jr, Clinton, and Bush Sr all would have been on camera by now condemning it on the global and national stage. Trump wont strongly condemn this without some bullshit qualifier so he can keep his bigoted base. Just like he did with Charlottesville.
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#38
RE: Active shooter in NZ
Quote:That is what I am hearing on cable news.

Which outlet?  I'd appreciate a link if you have one. I've been following this all night and haven't heard that.

Quote:The guy also had a long rambling manifesto.

Eighty seven pages isn't all that long for a manifesto, you can write that much in an afternoon.  How do you know it was 'rambling', or are you just using another word when you don't know what it means?

Quote:And the sicko had a body came and went live on social media while doing it. That takes planning. 


Maybe an hour, hour and a half. You can pick up a gopro camera almost anywhere.  A live stream takes less than a minute to establish.

 I'd still like to know where you got the info that this was planned for months in advance.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#39
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:55 am)Yonadav Wrote: Mentally healthy people go on killing sprees all the time. Just because you're disturbed doesn't make you a mental health expert.

Quote:A mental disorder, also called a mental illness[2] or psychiatric disorder, is a behavioral or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment of personal functioning.[3] Such features may be persistent, relapsing and remitting, or occur as a single episode. Many disorders have been described, with signs and symptoms that vary widely between specific disorders.[4][5] Such disorders may be diagnosed by a mental health professional.

This is hugely inadequate/inaccurate/problematic by my mind. If somebody commits a crime, and is caught and punished for it, that causes significant distress and impairment of personal functioning therefore mentally ill. If you give up smoking cold turkey you're mentally ill if it causes distress. If a spouse is unfaithful and get's away with it, with no feelings of remorse/guilt or projected thoughts of infidelity, then no problem. If they do have such feelings then they do have a mental illness however; likewise if they are busted by their spouse who is livid about it, but only after they've found out. If they're not angry at the infidelity, again, no mental illness. There are about a gazillion other examples I estimate. 

I prefer this definition: Any thought or behaviour which the majority of local society considers to be maladaptive.

(March 15, 2019 at 10:15 am)Brian37 Wrote: 3. I knew Trump would be half assed about it.

All he said in the aftermath of the last mass shooting in his own country was "It's a shame" so his silence on this one seems relatively accurate and consistent with form.
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#40
RE: Active shooter in NZ
One of the things CNN is mentioning contained in the manifesto is that the killer(s) believed that this was a "revenge" terror attack for terror attack(s) in Germany that he/they believed was perpetrated by muslim(s). 

Thank you religion, time to stop now.
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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