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Current time: June 15, 2019, 6:57 pm

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Active shooter in NZ
#41
RE: Active shooter in NZ
Can we discuss how different countries would deal with the aftermath and prevention of this?

How do we think nz as a whole will socially move to prevent this?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#42
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 10:54 am)Editz Wrote: This is hugely inadequate/inaccurate/problematic by my mind. If somebody commits a crime, and is caught and punished for it, that causes significant distress and impairment of personal functioning therefore mentally ill. If you give up smoking cold turkey you're mentally ill if it causes distress. If a spouse is unfaithful and get's away with it, with no feelings of remorse/guilt or projected thoughts of infidelity, then no problem. If they do have such feelings then they do have a mental illness however; likewise if they are busted by their spouse who is livid about it, but only after they've found out. If they're not angry at the infidelity, again, no mental illness. There are about a gazillion other examples I estimate. 

I prefer this definition: Any thought or behaviour which the majority of local society considers to be maladaptive.


I can't get on board with that. Mental illness is a real thing and isn't just a matter of majority opinion. And I also don't think that a society's opinion of what constitutes 'maladaptive' is worth squat. Society itself is frequently maladaptive. Sometimes a minority rebells against a maladaptive society and history lionizes them, even though a majority did not support them in their day. There is a bit of dispute about how many Americans supported the war for independence, but pretty much everyone agrees that it was not a majority.

People have completely sane and rational reasons for doing things. They are sane and rational regardless of how many people disagree with them. This guy in New Zealand seems to have felt that Islamic immigration needed to be stopped, and he was absolutely willing to go to war over it. I only know that he felt strongly that Islamic immigration was a threat and that something needed to be done about it. I know nothing about his mental health.

In 18th century America, we had an event occur that we call the Paxton Boys uprising. It began when some Native Americans performed a series of lethal attacks on white settlers in the Great Lakes region. The Native Americans had a bit of a problem with immigration. The Paxton Boys responded by mass murdering a bunch of Native Americans and then marching on Philadelphia. The Native Americans who killed white settlers were sane and rational. The Paxton Boys were sane and rational. They were all people who felt strongly enough about their position in the scheme of things to be willing to go to war and kill people.

Ascribing mental illness to people who do horrible things is just a lazy way of understanding someone doing things that we can't or won't do. And it more or less excuses the things that are done, instead of holding people stone cold responsible for their actions.
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#43
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 8:40 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 8:15 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I also object on calling him "mentally ill".

This is a terrorist, fair and square. His ass should be executed in public.

It is possible to be disturbed and a terrorist too. Far too often the word "mental illness" gets defined as cartoon crazy. NO, you can  be quite lucid and sane and still be disturbed enough to do sick shit like he did. I m not downplaying it.  You have to be disturbed to do something like that, regardless of motive. He was a terrorist yes.


I suffer from mental illness. I am quite sane though. I am not desperate or disturbed or indoctrinated. That asshole was. 

That asshole was a terrorist, but he was still disturbed and indoctrinated.

That standards of judging creates more and more terrorists on the Muslim side.
This man -and so many white Islamophobic terrorists- are making a Muslim so angry seeing their people die.

Where is equality ? what's the difference between this white man, and between terrorist Muslims with beards?
He also believed in political agenda just like Muslim terrorists believe in agenda.

Let's be honest Brian: he is only getting "light condemnation here and there" because he is white+blonde+westerner+non-Muslim.

Again I repeat it: if he was of different color, different heritage, the picture would've been so different.
The terrorist piece of shit was following a political agenda that teaches the 'despise of immigrants' especially the Muslim ones.

That's a fully sane man, with a fully functional brain. But his color and race stood between him and the accusation of terrorism in your post.
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#44
RE: Active shooter in NZ
Here in the us we leverage the notion to call domestics "disturbed people" while gleefully employing the term "terrorist" for foreigners and other undesirables.  It's not just an issue of excusing an individual, we use it to excuse our entire society, lol.  We'll even do this after the fact,  it's pretty much inevitable that the media will trip all over itself to make comparisons of this mans actions and manifesto to groups like ISIS.  The conceptual exportation of violence is a thing.  

Meanwhile, it's entirely likely that he -was- acting on the shared ideology of his community.  

As Yon pointed out, the guy may be a nutter, we don't know, but it doesn't take a nutter to open fire at other people at a mosque or anywhere else - just commitment.  Sometimes, the only rational thing a nutter -does- are the things we take to be indicative of their being crazy.  It may be crazy, for example, to believe in white elimination..but if you really believed in it...what would the sane thing to do actually be? How does a sane person respond to looming genocide?

Pewpewpew.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#45
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 11:40 am)wyzas Wrote: One of the things CNN is mentioning contained in the manifesto is that the killer(s) believed that this was a "revenge" terror attack for terror attack(s) in Germany that he/they believed was perpetrated by muslim(s). 

Thank you religion, time to stop now.

So the idea was to go to literally the most distant point on the globe to take revenge? Dodgy Huh 
Revenge is considered to be killing more innocent people?
Jesus F. Christ Arrgghh
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#46
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 12:47 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 8:40 am)Brian37 Wrote: It is possible to be disturbed and a terrorist too. Far too often the word "mental illness" gets defined as cartoon crazy. NO, you can  be quite lucid and sane and still be disturbed enough to do sick shit like he did. I m not downplaying it.  You have to be disturbed to do something like that, regardless of motive. He was a terrorist yes.


I suffer from mental illness. I am quite sane though. I am not desperate or disturbed or indoctrinated. That asshole was. 

That asshole was a terrorist, but he was still disturbed and indoctrinated.

That standards of judging creates more and more terrorists on the Muslim side.
This man -and so many white Islamophobic terrorists- are making a Muslim so angry seeing their people die.

Where is equality ? what's the difference between this white man, and between terrorist Muslims with beards?
He also believed in political agenda just like Muslim terrorists believe in agenda.

Let's be honest Brian: he is only getting "light condemnation here and there" because he is white+blonde+westerner+non-Muslim.

Again I repeat it: if he was of different color, different heritage, the picture would've been so different.
The terrorist piece of shit was following a political agenda that teaches the 'despise of immigrants' especially the Muslim ones.

That's a fully sane man, with a fully functional brain. But his color and race stood between him and the accusation of terrorism in your post.

Yes, that's the rule, Atlas. When he's a Muslim, he's a terrorist. When he's some white guy, he's disturbed.   Doh
We do not inherit the world from our parents. We borrow it from our children.
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#47
RE: Active shooter in NZ
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...162168002/
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#48
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 9:55 am)Yonadav Wrote:
(March 15, 2019 at 9:24 am)Brian37 Wrote: You are both missing my point.

1. He was disturbed. Mentally healthy people do not go on killing sprees. They don't join Isis either.

This doesnt even have to be about religion.

Say a guy suffers from depression, cant keep a job, gets fired, next day goes in with a firearm and murders several co workers. He is mentally ill, not crazy, but quite sane suffering from depression. Also say for example, If someone was abused as a kid, they can grow up quite sane but suffer the mental affects of the abuse growing up, and end up being violent themselves. In both of those cases you can have  a very sane person, who knows what they are doing is wrong, but at the same time be quite disturbed. Not all mental illness means you cant tell right from wrong. 

The guy planned months in advance, so he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was a terrorist. But something disturbed him enough to lead him down that path.

But there is a reason regardless we don't hear about mass shootings that much in Australia or NZ, unlike America their populations have a very healthy attitude about firearms and keeping them out of the wrong hands. So things like this are very rare over there.

I am very worried right now about some of our Christian right wingers killing Muslims here in America because of this. I am also worried that maybe a Muslim here might want to retaliate. But one lady official in NZ did the right thing right off the bat. She said the Muslims who came there were just coming for a better life, and and were welcome there and were part of the nation. She also said about the terrorist, he  was not one of them(meaning part of the nation's ideals) nor was his kind of hate and violence welcome there.

Sad though, been watching the news all morning, has anyone seen a tweet or public statement from Trump condemning this? I haven't seen any statement coming from him as of yet. Not that he'd mean it. Any other president prior would be quick to condemn it, and certainly wouldn't have spent years vilifying an entire religion. This Christian terrorist I do believe had quoted Trump.

Mentally healthy people go on killing sprees all the time. Just because you're disturbed doesn't make you a mental health expert. 

People go to war. They aren't disturbed. They go to war for reasons. They are completely rational. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Until a professional has diagnosed this guy with psychological problems, he's just a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. He chose to go to war. He's absolutely responsible for his actions. Don't try to blame someone else for indoctrinating him. Don't try to blame mental illness. Since all of us here agree that he's not a freedom fighter, then he's just a terrorist.

No, they do not.

Humans go to war just like other mammals group and compete against each other, but we are not talking about war. 

Sociopaths and psychopaths can be quite sane, and disturbed at the same time. It is still a form of mental defect. 

No, he did not choose to go to war. He most likely had a lifetime of his own failures and was looking to make himself important and famous. He chose to look for an excuse to make everyone as miserable as he was You don't need a religion to do that. Dillon Harris and Eric Clibold(sp) the Colombine killers were quite sane, not terrorists, but were disturbed and looking to make a mark. 

He is a terrorist for sure, but the same sense of self importance and wanting to make a mark, is the same thing that the Colimbine killers did. 

The Boston Bomber brothers also "went to war". But the truth really was the older brother was blaming his loss of his kick boxing licence on society, when the truth was he lost it for domestic abuse. You can argue that he hid behind religion as an excuse, so in that sense he was a terrorist. But the real reason he did it was because he was a abuser who got caught and lost his ability to earn a living in that sport. 

I highly suspect this guy in NZ simply had a string of failures in his life, and used clung to white nationalism because those bigots made him feel important.

It still takes a disturbed person to murder anyone for any reason outside self defense.
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#49
RE: Active shooter in NZ
People like this think that they are in the midst of a war, sometimes they imagine that their actions might prevent one. We do the worst shit for the best reasons.

Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and all that jazz.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#50
RE: Active shooter in NZ
(March 15, 2019 at 2:41 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: People like this think that they are in the midst of a war, sometimes they imagine that their actions might prevent one.  We do the worst shit for the best reasons.  

Wide is the gate and broad is the road  that leads to destruction, and all that jazz.

Um  no. Again. 

I'd bet that this Christian nationalist, just like the Boston Bombers, were simply disturbed men who had failures in their lives, and other radicals gave them an excuse to get violent.

There had to be a lacking in their own social lives long before they did those things, to lead them to the respective hate groups that gave them a voice. 

But it isn't sexy to say someone went postal because they were a failure in their own lives. It is more sexy to say someone murdered for a greater good. 

There are plenty of Christians and Muslims and Jews and atheists that don't do these things. So the real issue is what leads a disturbed individual to make excuses to do these things. Financial instability, family instability, love relationship failure, and work failure can all be reasons for an individual to look for other groups to validate their scapegoating.
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