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Sharia law anyone?
#31
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 27, 2019 at 6:32 pm)fredd bear Wrote:  I accept that Wyzas made his list in good faith. 

I also accept that your answers are technically correct, in terms of what is written in the Q'uran an Hadith.

However, those answers do not necessarily reflect reality. I'l mention just a few of things I know to be true having lived in the country concerned , which has its own religious police.(Malaysia) . 

In Malaysia it is a criminal offence:

To try to convert a Muslim to another faith.

To offer alcohol to a Muslim

For a Muslim to be found eating or drinking in public during daylight ours of Ramadan.

For a Muslim to deny his faith; 2 years in prison.

In divorce, in Malaysia, the children ALWAYS go to the father

Ah yes, when I was there, women wore neither hijab nor burqa.

I have only read  in newspaper of women who were raped being arrested for adultery. I have no problem believing that would happen in say Pakistan, or perhaps Afghanistan.

As for other extreme punishments. I accept that they are not written law. Also accept that they almost certainly happen.

However, I am also aware that some of the more extreme customs are tribal, predating Islam by centuries. Two examples ;female circumcision. A barbaric tribal custom, I think.  Also, customs of extreme modesty, such as the burqa and niqab. As far as I know, that's not quite what the Q'uran says;


In the Quran, God says, And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms…” (24:31)

I think perhaps the perceptions of Islam held by many non Muslims are based on the excessive conservatism of the Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia. Plus of course,  those ignorant and pathetic individuals who have been  taught in some perverted madrassa that is a  great thing to murder innocents, even though this is banned in the Q'uran

Islam is portrayed as a religion of “terror” and “killing”, yet this is just one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam. Allah Almighty states unambiguously in the Quran (what means): "Nor take life -- which Allah has made sacred -- except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)." [Quran 17:33]

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/113432/islam-does-not-tolerate-the-killing-of-innocents

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 Face veils:

The burqa and other types of face veils have been attested since pre-Islamic times, in particular among Pashtun and Arab women. Face veiling has not been regarded as a religious requirement by most Islamic scholars, past or present. However, some scholars, especially those belonging to the Salafi movement, view it as obligatory for women in the presence of non-related males. Women may wear the burqa for a number of reasons, including compulsion, as was the case in Afghanistan during Taliban rule. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

Malaysia is one of the few Muslim countries -if not the only besides Turkey and Qatar- that has a respect for its citizens despite their religion. I can totally understand leaving the freedom for the person to choose without holding a stick to beat them into it.

If a city wants to live under Sharia; it's their business. If another wants to live like Vegas; also let it.
It is doing just that; and I expect Malaysian Muslims to be light years ahead of their Arab brethren.

As for the verse, my personal perspective is that it's focusing on covering the attractive parts in a female body to satisfy the goal of modesty; but the Wahhabi school -and the Sunni school behind it- included the face to cover too; mixing the ancient Arabic habit and reflecting it on the Quran.

It is very alarming to see how the Wahhabi school focuses obsessively on how women dress; but have no problems with banks dealing in Reba, or dictators ruling the people with force, or pulverizing another country like Yemen causing thousands of deaths.

Malaysia should only base it's Islamic laws on the Quran, but Sharia there is only a choice in specific regions where Muslims are the majority.

(March 27, 2019 at 8:49 pm)wyzas Wrote: I didn't troll. I simply said that trolling should be expected when the person holds that particular premise. From where I stand, you hold that premise. 

Hilarious Gives the right to troll, plaeese.   Hilarious

And I do like the thought of man making gods. That the only explanation for gods existing. They are a man made concept. 

If you hold a position that I consider absurd and does not warrant serious consideration then I'm gonna poke fun.

Edit: Don't feel personally offended, jews, christians, hindus,............ positions are also absurd.

I wasn't referring to you, mh.brewer.
The universe is full of signs, and not being able to see them must make you ask yourself this question: why are you turning your eyes away from them?

The new discoveries being made are making the premise I'm holding stronger and stronger. There are signs of a design being unfolded every day; actually it's quite authentic to assume a designer, it became an impending fact.

Have you ever listened to the sounds of planets?
BTW I'm not trolling. They are talking for real:



Reply
#32
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 27, 2019 at 4:35 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I already mentioned in this comment that most of this list is false:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-58591-p...pid1892059

If your reply to my evidence is the comment you posted; then it is trolling based on a false list.

I'll say it again then with the relevant bit in bold so you don't "miss it" again:

"I wasn't trolling, just putting forward a theory that might explain the oppression of women in Islamic states. If anybody's got a more plausible explanation I'd love to hear it."

You might have heard about women in Saudi Arabia not being allowed to drive or leave the country without a male relative's permission, for example.
Reply
#33
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 28, 2019 at 3:37 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The universe is full of signs, and not being able to see them must make you ask yourself this question: why are you turning your eyes away from them?

The problem doesn't appear to be our eyes so much as your brain.

Here's something to consider, no answered required. What wouldn't you take to be indicative of "design".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 28, 2019 at 2:20 pm)Editz Wrote:
(March 27, 2019 at 4:35 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I already mentioned in this comment that most of this list is false:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-58591-p...pid1892059

If your reply to my evidence is the comment you posted; then it is trolling based on a false list.

I'll say it again then with the relevant bit in bold so you don't "miss it" again:

"I wasn't trolling, just putting forward a theory that might explain the oppression of women in Islamic states. If anybody's got a more plausible explanation I'd love to hear it."

You might have heard about women in Saudi Arabia not being allowed to drive or leave the country without a male relative's permission, for example.

There are other parts of the world that witness terrible conditions for women to live; too. From the living room of an American alcoholic husband to the depths of Africa where FGM is a native custom.

Why focus on Muslim nomadic regions and forget the rest of the world?

The attacks on women rights in the Middle East are mostly tribal and enforced by dictators to control society and stay in power. For example; driving for women became legal in Saudi Arabia now; it was a mere political card that the regime holds and uses.

(March 28, 2019 at 2:30 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(March 28, 2019 at 3:37 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The universe is full of signs, and not being able to see them must make you ask yourself this question: why are you turning your eyes away from them?

The problem doesn't appear to be our eyes so much as your brain.

Here's something to consider, no answered required.  What wouldn't you take to be indicative of "design".

Yes it is more correct to say that it is in our brain; if we saw the sun and kept telling ourselves that it's a moon then our eyes are okay.

What I wouldn't consider as a "design"; is something operating in a random fashion, outside of any higher law to govern it.
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#35
RE: Sharia law anyone?
@AtlasS33

"Malaysia should only base its Islamic laws on the Quran, but Sharia there is only a choice in specific regions where Muslims are the majority."

--and if wishes were fishes everyone would eat.

I prefaced my last post by pointing out the difference between what the law says and actual practice. That was to show that as an individual believer, your opinion is irrelevant in such circumstances.

I agree with your interpretation of women's modesty as written in the Q'uran. I suspect that is the same in most Muslim countries. It's certainly true of every Muslim I've known. (and I've known quite a few)

As it turns out, the Muslim population in Malaysia makes up 60% of the population , with Chinese making up most of the remaining 40%, apart from a few million Indians, mainly Tamil and Sikh. That is how they manage to have religious police with powers to arrest. They tend to concentrate on Muslim behaviour, but will arrest a kafir trying to convert Muslims to another religion..

It is also the law in Malaysia that any business above a certain size MUST have a Malay (Muslim) partner. In practice this means many businesses have 'silent' Malay partners, who contribute nothing and get paid for for doing nothing

I arrived in Malaysia the first time in march 1969. The race riots began in May. They were started by the Malay Muslim majority. Because there were no Chinese in either the army or police, several hundred Chinese were murdered, but no Malays. The dusk till dawn curfew was still in effect when I left Malaysia in December.

I have a theory about Wahhabi Muslim absolute monarchy in Saudi Arabia:: It is my perception that dictatorships everywhere tend to be socially conservative. The Saudi royal family does not seem to practice the Islam they claim. Ascribing to Wahhabi Islam has little to do with Islam. It is simply a means to an end.That end is power and control.

I also think there is a causal connection between social/religious conservatism and the marginalised in a society. Ie the poor and uneducated.(ignorant) I don't rule out lack of intellect, but it's often hard to the the difference between ignorance and a 'modest' 'IQ.

I have also noticed the same groups in societies tend to also be politically conservative, or working class Tories. In this country it is their votes which elect and keep conservative governments in power.

My perception has been reinforced by reading the posts of our more extreme Christian members especially..


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"Why focus on Muslim nomadic regions and forget the rest of the world?"

I'm afraid that's a common logical fallacy, called 'you too" (latin Tu quoque) or appeal to hypocrisy.

THIS thread is focussed on Islam. We are not discussing other countries. Pointing out issues in other countries does not diminish nor excuse egregious muslim behaviour.

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Tu quoque (/tjuːˈkwoʊkwi, tuːˈkwoʊkweɪ/;[1] Latin for "you also"), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

The fallacy

Tu quoque "argument" follows the pattern:[2]

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
Therefore, X is false.

An example would be

Peter: "Bill is guilty of defrauding the government out of tax dollars."
Bill: "How can you say that when you yourself have 20 outstanding parking tickets?"

It is a fallacy because the moral character or actions of the opponent are generally irrelevant to the logic of the argument.[3] It is often used as a red herring tactic and is a special case of the ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of facts about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
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#36
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 28, 2019 at 5:18 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes it is more correct to say that it is in our brain; if we saw the sun and kept telling ourselves that it's a moon then our eyes are okay.

What I wouldn't consider as a "design"; is something operating in a random fashion, outside of any higher law to govern it.

-and there you have it.  Not only are there such things, your entire notion of "design" is anything not random.

Brain problem. Yours.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#37
RE: Sharia law anyone?
I find God intervenes twice a day at exactly the same time with my broken clock.
Pretty sure God like fucking with me like that.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply
#38
RE: Sharia law anyone?
(March 28, 2019 at 7:43 pm)ignoramus Wrote: I find God intervenes twice a day at exactly the same time with my broken clock.
Pretty sure God like fucking with me like that.

*Boom!*
Dying to live, living to die.
Reply



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