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Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
#11
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
(May 5, 2019 at 8:37 am)wyzas Wrote: Welcome to the forum.

Had to read up on christian libers: [/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_libertarianism

I personally don't think we have that much in common. Just mentioning the reformation gave me the willies.

Edit: hold the phone, are you christian liber............ or liber christian? They are different you know.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Christianity

Thanks.  I wasn't aware of the two versions.  In reading those, I would think "Christian Libertarian" is closer, but I don't think of Luther as being libertarian at all (as a reference in the article suggests) since he used state power to enforce belief.  Maybe it would be closer to say I am a libertarian (freedom of thought, rationality being primary) who believes some of the Christian claims.

I know early Christians (before there was a strong church hierarchy) were mistaken to be atheists.  Also, being libertarian, to maintain freedom of thought requires rejecting imposed doctrines and various forms of mysticism, so I am thinking we may have at least that in common.

(May 5, 2019 at 11:18 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 5, 2019 at 12:22 am)lowellwballard Wrote: 46. Deductive logic requires inductive logic to support its premises.   

Deductive logic does not need inductive logic to support its premises. Deductive logic can be used to arrive at a priori conclusions. No inductive logic necessary. Math is a good example.

Quote:“Faith” is treating something that is probably true as if it is definitely true. [i]Inductive logic is probabilistic and so requires faith.  (that is different than the common religious definition of blind "faith").[/i]

I don't agree with you here. First, your definition of faith might be disputed, but maybe that's what faith is to you, so I'll leave it alone. But why treat something that's probably true as if it's definitely true? Is that logical? Isn't it more reasonable to treat things that are probably true like they're probably true? There is only one category of things that I treat as definitely true: things that are definitely true. To do otherwise is unreasonable.

I also disagree that probability requires faith. But let's see if you come back before we dig into that discussion.


Welcome to AF!
Thanks.  Good points.  That really makes me have to think.

I guess I am referring to applying "A priori" knowledge to an actual, rather than abstract, situation (perhaps is that the same as "A posteriori"?).  So, the question may be, is there any application of deductive logic that doesn't also require some form of inductive logic, even if the premises seem almost certainly true?

Yes, I think the definition that religion uses for "Faith" is problematic.  So, I agree the definition I am suggesting is not common and is debatable.

By saying we treat things as "definitely true" that are actually "probably true", I am referring to how we don't give a second thought to innumerable low probability events that could occur.  For example, we have "faith" that every elevator we step into will work even though there is a slight possibility it will fail.  So, I guess I am arguing that "faith" shouldn't be a religious notion, but rather no different than how we actually act on probabilities in other areas of life.

I guess I am not sure there are any premises in real life that are actually 100% "definitely true".  At very least, human perceptions of reality would seem to be fallible.
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#12
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
(May 5, 2019 at 9:23 pm)lowellwballard Wrote: Thanks.  I wasn't aware of the two versions.  In reading those, I would think "Christian Libertarian" is closer, but I don't think of Luther as being libertarian at all (as a reference in the article suggests) since he used state power to enforce belief.  Maybe it would be closer to say I am a libertarian (freedom of thought, rationality being primary) who believes some of the Christian claims.

I know early Christians (before there was a strong church hierarchy) were mistaken to be atheists.  Also, being libertarian, to maintain freedom of thought requires rejecting imposed doctrines and various forms of mysticism, so I am thinking we may have at least that in common.

OK, possibly. I have quite a few things in common with christians and interact with them daily IRL. (my wife is catholic)

I'm not sure what imposed doctrines you're referring to, maybe a source for discussion. 

What probably needs to be discussed is the christian claims that you believe.
God(s) and religions are man made and the bane of humanity. 

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. Ozzy or Twain/take your pick
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#13
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
(May 5, 2019 at 9:23 pm)lowellwballard Wrote: Thanks.  Good points.  That really makes me have to think.

I guess I am referring to applying "A priori" knowledge to an actual, rather than abstract, situation (perhaps is that the same as "A posteriori"?).  So, the question may be, is there any application of deductive logic that doesn't also require some form of inductive logic, even if the premises seem almost certainly true?

You seem like a nice guy. Why not introduce yourself here?

A priori truths need not be heavy abstractions. If I say that I've been married for three years, you could deduce a priori that I have been married for at least two years. Such a deduction can be done a priori. While the premise that I've been married for three years is an a posteriori truth, once you've confirmed that it is in fact true, you can use that true premise to deduce other true things without further observation.

Quote:By saying we treat things as "definitely true" that are actually "probably true", I am referring to how we don't give a second thought to innumerable low probability events that could occur.  For example, we have "faith" that every elevator we step into will work even though there is a slight possibility it will fail.  So, I guess I am arguing that "faith" shouldn't be a religious notion, but rather no different than how we actually act on probabilities in other areas of life.

Sure. But then that would mean that everybody has "faith." And being "a person of faith" then becomes a meaningless term, because it would apply to anyone.

Furthermore, I find the probability of a creator deity to be highly improbable. If someone were to try to convince me to believe in their god, they may say something like: "You need to have faith that Jesus dies for your sins." Since I already think that this is improbable, having faith in the matter wouldn't change a thing (going by your definition, anyway).

Quote:I guess I am not sure there are any premises in real life that are actually 100% "definitely true".  At very least, human perceptions of reality would seem to be fallible.

I very much agree with you that human perceptions are fallible. That's why we have disciplines such as philosophy and science that try to work around the basic fallibility of our perceptions... through repeated testing and rigorous logic.
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#14
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
I think the marriage of political and religious viewpoints at an institutional level label is just creepy. It'd be like mixing my morning OJ and coffee for expedience.. blech
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#15
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
Welcome to the forum, looking forward to your introduction. I think we can have a lot of common ground if you hold that separation of religion and state is a good idea.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#16
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
Christianity has always been a political viewpoint.  If that's creepy, christianity has always been creepy.

Anyway, for the OPQ, there are bound to be tons of things common between atheists and theists.  Both are raised in the same cultures and live on the same planet, lol.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#17
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
(May 5, 2019 at 12:22 am)lowellwballard Wrote: For the 500th anniversary of the start of the Reformation (October 2017) I pulled together 95 ideas about how current christianity and our society may need reforms today.  In doing that, a major theme seemed to emerge that substitutes for truth and reason are used for social and religious groups to be more successful.

While atheists obviously disagree with christians on many points, is there significant common ground between intellectual atheists and intellectual christian libertarians in that both want a return to focus on truth and intellectual freedom rather than marketing and social control?

For example, here are some propositions that I think we may generally agree on:

7. The use of fallacies in marketing can be more effective than the use of logical arguments, but there is only one valid way to choose beliefs: choose the set of beliefs that are most probably true.

46. Deductive logic requires inductive logic to support its premises.  “Faith” is treating something that is probably true as if it is definitely true.  Inductive logic is probabilistic and so requires faith.  (that is different than the common religious definition of blind "faith").

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If you value the rights of minorities, I'll back you up every time. But for me, if the economic views don't support workers, that is where you lose me. It does no good to say you support LGBT, Muslims, or pot smokers, if they cant pay their bills. 

It isn't a matter of "social control", it is a matter of equality, and economic equality. Economies are like a rubber band, you cant keep stretching it forever, at some point it will break.

A little inequity has to exist. Nobody should be against the private sector, but right now, there is far too much abuse at the top. And if your position is that more should be more independent, the cheapest way to do that would be to pay livable wages so less people turn to government.
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#18
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
Common ground? Do you like Baklava?
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude









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#19
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
Hell yes. We have a Greek restaurant that puts a thin layer of cheesecake on top of her homemade baklava. Truly amazing.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#20
RE: Christian Libertarians and Atheists - Common Ground?
(May 13, 2019 at 9:41 am)tackattack Wrote: Hell yes. We have a Greek restaurant that puts a thin layer of cheesecake on top of her homemade baklava. Truly amazing.

Does that come with a complimentary insulin injection?

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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