Evidence for Believing

[Simon Moon]

And yet, you have never been able to provide an accurate method for telling the difference between:

1. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but misidentified an unusual, but otherwise natural experience as a god
2. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but they were actually delusional
3. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but had some malicious aliens cause him to have this experience
4. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, and it was actually a god

I  can't make that call for someone else. I  may not really love my wife, but could just think I do because I want to be married, or it might just be an illusion.  I can't prove to you or anyone else that I love her,  but I know I do. I'm not going to leave her and come back if I  manage to prove it by some other means. .

But at least you should understand, that when people tell us they have had a god reveal himself to them, why we don't consider that good evidence.

At least there is some sort of demonstrable evidence that you love your wife. Hypothetically speaking, I would be able to see you acting in certain ways that are typical of someone in love: doing things for her, acting affectionate toward her, supporting her in bad times, raising children with her, buying her presents, etc, etc.

Sure, you could be acting out all those behaviors without really being in love, but at least there is some evidence that you are. From an outsiders point of view, I could make a rational, evidence based argument, that you are really in love with your wife.

If you told me you were in love with your wife, but I have never met her (she always seems to be out of town), I don't see any woman's clothes in your closet, I don't see any wedding pictures, etc, etc, I would be a lot less likely to believe you.

As atheists, our position is much more like the latter, you are telling us you love your wife, but we see no evidence that you are married. At least in the first example, at a minimum, you actually have a wife.

What kind of case could one make, that even approaches the level of evidence of you being in love with your wife, that a god has revealed himself to you? What kind of case could you make that rises to that level? Obviously, you continue to fail to make it.

[Anomalocaris]

I  can't make that call for someone else. I  may not really love my wife, but could just think I do because I want to be married, or it might just be an illusion.  I can't prove to you or anyone else that I love her,  but I know I do. I'm not going to leave her and come back if I  manage to prove it by some other means. .

But at least you should understand, that when people tell us they have had a god reveal himself to them, why we don't consider that good evidence.

At least there is some sort of demonstrable evidence that you love your wife. Hypothetically speaking, I would be able to see you acting in certain ways that are typical of someone in love: doing things for her, acting affectionate toward her, supporting her in bad times, raising children with her, buying her presents, etc, etc.

Sure, you could be acting out all those behaviors without really being in love, but at least there is some evidence that you are. From an outsiders point of view, I could make a rational, evidence based argument, that you are really in love with your wife.

If you told me you were in love with your wife, and I have never seen here at your house (she always seems to be out of town), I don't see any woman's clothes in your closet, I don't see any wedding pictures, etc, etc, I would be a lot less likely to believe you.

As atheists, our position is much more like the latter, you are telling us you love your wife, but we see no evidence that you are married.

What kind of case could one make, that even approaches the level of evidence of you being in love with your wife, that a god has revealed himself to you? What kind of case could you make that rises to that level? Obviously, you continue to fail to make it.

You might conceivably be the only authority on what you think you know.    But the only authority does not equal a credible authority at all.


However,  You are no authority at all on what it is that caused you to think you know what you think you know.

[Abaddon_ire]

Pay attention. I am not dismissing your conclusion (it was god) because of the fallacy you’re using. I am pointing out that you have reached your conclusion (it was god) using fallacious reasoning. That’s a ‘you’ problem, not a ‘me’ problem. Whether or not your conclusion is actually true is irrelevant to the fact that you are not warranted in believing it is true, because you’ve used fallacies to get there. If you’re comfortable knowing that the reasoning you’ve used to reach a conclusion about the most important belief of your entire life is erroneous, then no one here is likely to change your mind. But, that’s something you have to live with, not us.

What do you think I've been doing over the years?  I've studied the bible and all the modern religions and have been in discussions with believers and nonbelievers.  I've participated in this forum since 2013 and have heard pretty much every argument against God that there is.  I've also read extensively.  I live and breath this stuff, when I'm not working, caring for family or serving the community.  Believe me; I don't take mt beliefs for granted.

And, hundreds of thousands of people right now think the earth is flat. Is their belief, alone, sufficient evidence that the earth is flat? Yes or no?  The number of people who believe some claim is true has zero rational bearing on whether or not it’s actually true.

If I hear 100,000 people say they believe in God because they sought him and he impressed them with his existence, then I follow the same path and he impresses himself on me, then I believe them.  When he still keeps me in the faith daily, I continue to believe.
 

This is nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization for why so many people’s experiences of god are contradictory, and often times mutually exclusive (another fallacy), and is unrelated to the base fact that NONE of you have a way to distinguish between a revelation and your own mind. Therefore, your belief has not been rationally justified, and you can’t continue to whine about why folks here don’t believe in god. It’s because we, unlike you, can recognize that you have no good reason to believe your experience was caused by a god to begin with.

I don't know why it is so hard to comprehend it when I speak of a God who doesn't always operate according to natural law and does things in ways that we don't have the capacity to comprehend.  He knows that our religions and beliefs are ways to try to understand  what we can't fully understand until we come face to face.  We don't have words to describe all aspects of God.  So he assures us of his existence and resides in us.  It doesn't matter to him that we have our various ideas of who and what he is.  It's the fact that we are moving toward him and having that realization at the point when we come into union with him.  That's what the journey is about.

Howcome your "god" seems unaware what would convince me or any other atheist of his existence? Would he not, under your cock and bull story, know exactly what would convince me and thus tailor an experience just for me? You claim he did exactly that just for you. You claim that he does exactly that for all seekers for god. Well long ago I was one. I turned up. Your "god" was a no show. Either he was so weak he couldn't work out how to reveal himself to me, he intended me to be an atheist or he simply does not exist.

Please explain.

[Lek]

If you were seeking with a true heart and he hasn't come to you then I can't say, but you must be open to him coming to you in a way you wouldn't think he should. But all I know is my situation. You've done your search and you've made a choice. I would still keep my mind open, which is probably what you do. Sometimes it's a matter of timing. Because he hasn't shown you yet doesn't mean he won't. People come to God during all points in life.

[Anomalocaris]

If you were seeking with a true heart and he hasn't come to you then I can't say, but you must be open to him coming to you in a way you wouldn't think he should.  But all I know is my situation.  You've done your search and you've made a choice.  I  would still keep my mind open, which is probably what you do.  Sometimes it's a matter of timing. Because he hasn't shown you yet doesn't mean he won't.  People come to God during all points in life.

Except the "true heart" has proven, in every instance where deception can be shown, to be nothing more than  "eager to be deceived"

Isn't it strange how your true heart has chosen to believe something specifically concocted so that penalty for believing it when it is false so happen to be deferred to after death, where whether it was paid or not by others who also believed such things can not really be told?

[Lek]

If you were seeking with a true heart and he hasn't come to you then I can't say, but you must be open to him coming to you in a way you wouldn't think he should.  But all I know is my situation.  You've done your search and you've made a choice.  I  would still keep my mind open, which is probably what you do.  Sometimes it's a matter of timing. Because he hasn't shown you yet doesn't mean he won't.  People come to God during all points in life.

Except the "true heart" has proven, in every instance where deception can be shown, to be nothing more than  "eager to be deceived"

Isn't it strange how your true heart has chosen to believe something specifically concocted so that penalty for believing it when it is false so happen to be deferred to after death, where whether it was paid or not by others who also believed such things can not really be told?

So you were just eager to be deceived?

[Anomalocaris]

Except the "true heart" has proven, in every instance where deception can be shown, to be nothing more than  "eager to be deceived"

Isn't it strange how your true heart has chosen to believe something specifically concocted so that penalty for believing it when it is false so happen to be deferred to after death, where whether it was paid or not by others who also believed such things can not really be told?

So you were just eager to be deceived?

My heart is blessedly untrue, remember?

[Simon Moon]

If you were seeking with a true heart and he hasn't come to you then I can't say, but you must be open to him coming to you in a way you wouldn't think he should.  But all I know is my situation.  You've done your search and you've made a choice.  I  would still keep my mind open, which is probably what you do.  Sometimes it's a matter of timing. Because he hasn't shown you yet doesn't mean he won't.  People come to God during all points in life.

Yes, I was a believer for decades, with many attempts at a sincere search for a god.

The choice I've made, is to be opened to being convinced, but with the knowledge, that there is no good evidence for the existence of gods.

A god might still reveal himself to me. Maybe his work schedule is loaded. Maybe he'll get caught up, and take notice of all my years of sincerely searching for him to reveal himself to me, and come through. If Saul was deserving of a Damascus road experience, maybe I am too.

So you were just eager to be deceived?

I admit, I was.

I was taught from the time I was born, that there is a god, a specific one, by every authority figure in my life. Almost every child is eager to please their parents and other adults in their lives.

I went to weekly religious ceremony, surrounded by people claiming they were having religious experiences, and I wanted desperately to have them also.

I was given many theological books, and apologetics books over the years.

How could the above NOT set up a mental state within me, that would make me eager to be deceived?

[Lek]

So you were just eager to be deceived?

My heart is blessedly untrue, remember?

Well, that's why you haven't found him.

[Anomalocaris]

My heart is blessedly untrue, remember?

Well, that's why you haven't found him.

For which I will be eternally thankful, for I am spared of being a slobbering delusional fool of a disgrace to mankind.