(September 24, 2019 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 11:36 am)Simon Moon Wrote: That sounds like a pretty weak ass god, then.

You're proposing a god, with supposedly immense power and knowledge, who can't even give a consistent image of his existence to his far less powerful creation?

Is he unable or unwilling to do this? If he is unable, then like I said, he's pretty weak. If he is unable, then he can't blame some of his creation for disbelieving he exists.

And the best you can come up with in defense of this, is 'god works in mysterious ways'.

Hopefully you are able to see why we are unimpressed with your 'evidence' and reasoning. Please, at least tell us you are able to see, we are being rational in our disbelief. This is a test of your intellectual honesty.

In your little world, you seem very rational.  To those who know God, you're not.

Yes, my 'little world' of understanding what are the best epistemological tools, that have been proven to be the best at discerning fact from fiction.

Funny thing is, you believe in a god that gave me the knowledge and understanding of the very tools, that, if used correctly, lead to the conclusion, that there are no rational reasons to believe he exists.

Quote:Instead of looking for evidence God wants to give you, you're demanding he give you evidence that you've decided he should give you.  But of course, it's God's fault because he made you that way - even though he didn't make others that way.

How am I able to recognise the evidence 'god' gave me, as being evidence for his existence, without first having the presupposition that he exist beforehand? To use John Loftas' "outsider test for belief", if an alien civilization with no god beliefs landed on earth, would they recognise the evidence you are referring to as evidence for a god?

Quote:Yes.  I do believe that God purposely draws people with many different images and ideas of him to come to him.  And he does this even though you think he should do it differently.

So, he purposely is setting up a situation, where he appears and provides evidence for his existence to geographically disparate populations, in such different ways, that it causes them to create religions with mutually exclusive beliefs. And you think this is evidence for his existence?

If he wants to have his existence stand up to basic scrutiny, good standards of evidence, valid and sound logic, he should do it differently. If he wanted to prevent a bloody history of warring religions, he should have done it differently. If he wanted to prevent persecution and slavery of much of humanity based on religious beliefs in various ancient books, he should have done it differently.

(September 24, 2019 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 11:36 am)Simon Moon Wrote: That sounds like a pretty weak ass god, then.

You're proposing a god, with supposedly immense power and knowledge, who can't even give a consistent image of his existence to his far less powerful creation?

Is he unable or unwilling to do this? If he is unable, then like I said, he's pretty weak. If he is unable, then he can't blame some of his creation for disbelieving he exists.

And the best you can come up with in defense of this, is 'god works in mysterious ways'.

Hopefully you are able to see why we are unimpressed with your 'evidence' and reasoning. Please, at least tell us you are able to see, we are being rational in our disbelief. This is a test of your intellectual honesty.

In your little world, you seem very rational.  To those who know God, you're not.  Instead of looking for evidence God wants to give you, you're demanding he give you evidence that you've decided he should give you.  But of course, it's God's fault because he made you that way - even though he didn't make others that way.

Yes.  I do believe that God purposely draws people with many different images and ideas of him to come to him.  And he does this even though you think he should do it differently.

No response to me either, Lek? Telling.

(September 24, 2019 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote: In your little world, you seem very rational.  To those who know God, you're not.

You do realize "Oh my bullshit is so big, so wonderful, and everyone who believes my bullshit is so happy" doesn't in any way whatsoever, make your bullshit any less bullshitty, right?

(September 24, 2019 at 2:57 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote: In your little world, you seem very rational.  To those who know God, you're not.

You do realize "Oh my bullshit is so big, so wonderful, and everyone who believes my bullshit is so happy" doesn't in any what whatsoever, make your bullshit any less bullshitty, right?

Well people like me who were very senior, deeply involved, church-trained and respected believers who ultimately had to admit my faith's god hypothesis was untrue and didn't help me be happy, are a problem for guys like Lek. I may well have a better understanding of his theology than he does, and was more dedicated for longer. Yet the center did not hold, and today I consider myself more content and possessed of far better explanations and predictions for lived experience.

Eventually, all bullshit is exposed as bullshit, though sadly, not always for particular individual believers.

Yeah, majority of Christians don't think that they talk with God, they just treat it like Santa Claus - they just go with it because of cultural reasons, without thinking too much about it.
And then in Muslim countries they must believe or they get killed.
And then there's like billion people that don't even own the radio - you can imagine what they believe.

(September 24, 2019 at 12:08 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 3:56 am)Deesse23 Wrote: He thinks he is gonna waste his time by trying to find out if his most fundamental beliefs are true, and thus is gonna waste his entire life then by believing BS. Him wasting his (life)time is only his matter, not ours. The sad part of such an existence, the part that affects others* is the amount of CO2 generated to further global warming. 

*next to him acting according to his false beliefs and discriminating against others, etc.

You taught me some new things about myself. I discriminate against others and I cause global warming. I never knew that.

Smartass lol

(September 24, 2019 at 10:07 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Pay attention. I am not dismissing your conclusion (it was god) because of the fallacy you’re using. I am pointing out that you have reached your conclusion (it was god) using fallacious reasoning. That’s a ‘you’ problem, not a ‘me’ problem. Whether or not your conclusion is actually true is irrelevant to the fact that you are not warranted in believing it is true, because you’ve used fallacies to get there. If you’re comfortable knowing that the reasoning you’ve used to reach a conclusion about the most important belief of your entire life is erroneous, then no one here is likely to change your mind. But, that’s something you have to live with, not us.

What do you think I've been doing over the years? I've studied the bible and all the modern religions and have been in discussions with believers and nonbelievers. I've participated in this forum since 2013 and have heard pretty much every argument against God that there is. I've also read extensively. I live and breath this stuff, when I'm not working, caring for family or serving the community. Believe me; I don't take mt beliefs for granted.

Quote:And, hundreds of thousands of people right now think the earth is flat. Is their belief, alone, sufficient evidence that the earth is flat? Yes or no?  The number of people who believe some claim is true has zero rational bearing on whether or not it’s actually true.

If I hear 100,000 people say they believe in God because they sought him and he impressed them with his existence, then I follow the same path and he impresses himself on me, then I believe them. When he still keeps me in the faith daily, I continue to believe.

Quote:This is nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization for why so many people’s experiences of god are contradictory, and often times mutually exclusive (another fallacy), and is unrelated to the base fact that NONE of you have a way to distinguish between a revelation and your own mind. Therefore, your belief has not been rationally justified, and you can’t continue to whine about why folks here don’t believe in god. It’s because we, unlike you, can recognize that you have no good reason to believe your experience was caused by a god to begin with.

I don't know why it is so hard to comprehend it when I speak of a God who doesn't always operate according to natural law and does things in ways that we don't have the capacity to comprehend. He knows that our religions and beliefs are ways to try to understand what we can't fully understand until we come face to face. We don't have words to describe all aspects of God. So he assures us of his existence and resides in us. It doesn't matter to him that we have our various ideas of who and what he is. It's the fact that we are moving toward him and having that realization at the point when we come into union with him. That's what the journey is about.

(September 24, 2019 at 4:31 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 10:07 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Pay attention. I am not dismissing your conclusion (it was god) because of the fallacy you’re using. I am pointing out that you have reached your conclusion (it was god) using fallacious reasoning. That’s a ‘you’ problem, not a ‘me’ problem. Whether or not your conclusion is actually true is irrelevant to the fact that you are not warranted in believing it is true, because you’ve used fallacies to get there. If you’re comfortable knowing that the reasoning you’ve used to reach a conclusion about the most important belief of your entire life is erroneous, then no one here is likely to change your mind. But, that’s something you have to live with, not us.

What do you think I've been doing over the years? I've studied the bible and all the modern religions and have been in discussions with believers and nonbelievers. I've participated in this forum since 2013 and have heard pretty much every argument against God that there is. I've also read extensively. I live and breath this stuff, when I'm not working, caring for family or serving the community. Believe me; I don't take mt beliefs for granted.

Quote:And, hundreds of thousands of people right now think the earth is flat. Is their belief, alone, sufficient evidence that the earth is flat? Yes or no?  The number of people who believe some claim is true has zero rational bearing on whether or not it’s actually true.

If I hear 100,000 people say they believe in God because they sought him and he impressed them with his existence, then I follow the same path and he impresses himself on me, then I believe them. When he still keeps me in the faith daily, I continue to believe.

Quote:This is nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization for why so many people’s experiences of god are contradictory, and often times mutually exclusive (another fallacy), and is unrelated to the base fact that NONE of you have a way to distinguish between a revelation and your own mind. Therefore, your belief has not been rationally justified, and you can’t continue to whine about why folks here don’t believe in god. It’s because we, unlike you, can recognize that you have no good reason to believe your experience was caused by a god to begin with.

I don't know why it is so hard to comprehend it when I speak of a God who doesn't always operate according to natural law and does things in ways that we don't have the capacity to comprehend. He knows that our religions and beliefs are ways to try to understand what we can't fully understand until we come face to face. We don't have words to describe all aspects of God. So he assures us of his existence and resides in us. It doesn't matter to him that we have our various ideas of who and what he is. It's the fact that we are moving toward him and having that realization at the point when we come into union with him. That's what the journey is about.

Just stick to the word "belief" and I'll personally have no qualms with you.

(September 24, 2019 at 4:31 pm)Lek Wrote: If I hear 100,000 people say they believe in God because they sought him and he impressed them with his existence, then I follow the same path and he impresses himself on me, then I believe them.  When he still keeps me in the faith daily, I continue to believe.

And yet, you have never been able to provide an accurate method for telling the difference between:

1. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but misidentified an unusual, but otherwise natural experience as a god
2. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but they were actually delusional
3. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but had some malicious aliens cause him to have this experience
4. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, and it was actually a god

(September 24, 2019 at 5:07 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(September 24, 2019 at 4:31 pm)Lek Wrote: If I hear 100,000 people say they believe in God because they sought him and he impressed them with his existence, then I follow the same path and he impresses himself on me, then I believe them.  When he still keeps me in the faith daily, I continue to believe.

And yet, you have never been able to provide an accurate method for telling the difference between:

1. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but misidentified an unusual, but otherwise natural experience as a god
2. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but they were actually delusional
3. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, but had some malicious aliens cause him to have this experience
4. someone who claims to have had a god reveal his existence to them, and it was actually a god

I can't make that call for someone else. I may not really love my wife, but could just think I do because I want to be married, or it might just be an illusion. I can't prove to you or anyone else that I love her, but I know I do. I'm not going to leave her and come back if I manage to prove it by some other means. .