Where do you draw the line between legitimate fat acceptance and science denialism?

[TaraJo]

Ugh.  I'm having crazy people rant at me on facebook over this.

So, did you know that it's impossible to lose weight without hating fat people?  Did you know that you're a horrible person if you don't want to date someone with a lifestyle that isn't compatible with your own?  Did you know that there are absolutely no negative side effects to obesity?  Did you know long term weight loss is impossible and even trying to lose weight will hurt you?  These are just a few of the gems thrown at me over the past few days on a few facebook groups.  My crime?  I lost a lot of weight since 2016; about 130 pounds and I am VERY proud of my accomplishment.  But now I have a whole crowd of "fat acceptance" people who are jumping down my throat, telling me that I'm such a horrible person for it.

I'll be the first to admit, we shouldn't mock or laugh at people for being fat.  And, yes, there can sometimes be health issues that make weight loss difficult (although, many of those health issues would also resolve themselves with weight loss).  And, yes, anorexia and bulimia exist and are serious issues that should be discouraged.  And sometimes (most-times?) the media has a nasty habit of giving people, especially women, unrealistic body images.  I'll even go so far as to say, yes, it's your body to do with as you please, although if you ARE someone I care about personally, I'll encourage you to get healthy and if you ask me what I think, I'll tell you that being fat is hurting you.

So on those fronts, I'm mostly in agreement with fat acceptance.  And if it ended there, I'd be ok with everything.  Problem is, it doesn't.  Something about the internet brings the dumbest people with the worst beliefs to the surface and if you do a search on instigram or twitter or tumblr for terms like "body positive" or "fat acceptance," you'll find some really bad stuff.  I don't hate fat people, at least not for being fat (I hate a few individuals who are fat, but I don't hate them because they're fat).  But I'm proud to have worked my ass off and lost that weight and I feel better than I've ever felt in my life. But, yeah, because I lost that weight, I must hate fat people.

Here's a few of their gems: 

1)  Desire to lose weight is inherently fat-phobic and it means you hate fat people
2)  There are no health risks to obesity
3)  There is extreme health risks to losing weight because you're giving yourself an eating disorder
4)  Losing weight is nearly impossible and long term weight loss IS impossible.  If you're lucky enough to lose weight, you'll just gain it right back
5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people
6)  BMI is garbage since professional athletes will have a high BMI despite being in great health
7)  Since thin people can have these health issues (like heart disease, sleep apnea, diabetes, ect), then that means being fat doesn't cause them

Am I alone in thinking that this has a nasty habit of going into junk science?  Or science denialism?  Is it wrong for me to want to keep this weight off or to work hard to stay strong and healthy and, yes, thin?

[Chad32]

People need to learn that all good things should be taken in moderation. It's possible to be too fat, and too skinny. You can be a bean pole, and still be fine. You can be a beanbag, and still be fine. I'm pretty sure no one should be 300 lbs or more, and no adult should be 100 lbs or less. Not unless you're like four feet tall.

[paulpablo]

I think it can be taken too far in either direction and I don't necessarily have respect for the so called science behind the BMI scale or what doctors say is overweight.  It has been a while since I've looked into the BMI scale but I'm sure it doesn't take into account different body types and bone structures.

 I know it's a joke that fat people are supposed to use being "big boned" as an excuse for being fat but I know someone who's the very extreme example of being big boned.  His hands are genuinely like gorilla hands and I'm sure no matter how much fat he lost the sheer size of his skeletal structure would make him overweight. 

In terms of fat acceptance in general society though I think there's a good middleground in there somewhere. I think it makes sense to be at a level of fat that isn't stopping you do normal day to day things like getting out a car, walking for an hour, being able to breath normally. 

[GrandizerII]

Here's a few of their gems: 

1)  Desire to lose weight is inherently fat-phobic and it means you hate fat people
2)  There are no health risks to obesity
3)  There is extreme health risks to losing weight because you're giving yourself an eating disorder
4)  Losing weight is nearly impossible and long term weight loss IS impossible.  If you're lucky enough to lose weight, you'll just gain it right back
5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people
6)  BMI is garbage since professional athletes will have a high BMI despite being in great health
7)  Since thin people can have these health issues (like heart disease, sleep apnea, diabetes, ect), then that means being fat doesn't cause them

Am I alone in thinking that this has a nasty habit of going into junk science?  Or science denialism?  Is it wrong for me to want to keep this weight off or to work hard to stay strong and healthy and, yes, thin?

Only 2 and 7 seem like current science denialism to me. 1 and 3 are debatable. The rest I don't see too much wrong with.

Ok, maybe calling BMI "garbage" is over the top, but 6 is still overall agreeable.

[TaraJo]

Here's a few of their gems: 

1)  Desire to lose weight is inherently fat-phobic and it means you hate fat people
2)  There are no health risks to obesity
3)  There is extreme health risks to losing weight because you're giving yourself an eating disorder
4)  Losing weight is nearly impossible and long term weight loss IS impossible.  If you're lucky enough to lose weight, you'll just gain it right back
5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people
6)  BMI is garbage since professional athletes will have a high BMI despite being in great health
7)  Since thin people can have these health issues (like heart disease, sleep apnea, diabetes, ect), then that means being fat doesn't cause them

Am I alone in thinking that this has a nasty habit of going into junk science?  Or science denialism?  Is it wrong for me to want to keep this weight off or to work hard to stay strong and healthy and, yes, thin?

Only 2 and 7 seem like current science denialism to me. 1 and 3 are debatable. The rest I don't see too much wrong with.

Ok, maybe calling BMI "garbage" is over the top, but 6 is still overall agreeable.

My feelings on these:

1)  Ok, I'm trans, I have the opportunity for surgery and surgeons won't touch me if I weigh over 220.  So, yeah, I have a legit, non-fat phobic reason to lose weight.  But besides that, the more weight I lose, the better shape I get into, the better I feel, inside and out.  Feeling good isn't fat phobia.

2)  Biology major.  There are a whole host of health risks associated with obesity.  I have known people who died much younger than they should have and they were morbidly obese.

3)  I think over eating is a worse disorder than temporarily eating less.  It certainly seems to hurt more people, at least in America.  

4)  Losing weight is hard work.  It hasn't been easy.  But it's possible and for some people, if they don't lose that weight, they will die.  Keeping the weight off is possible, but that's where psychology comes into play.  Don't let yourself get depressed, don't eat your way out of depression and when you get to your target weight, don't fall back into the same bad habits that made you fat in the first place.  Staying on a healthy weight loss plan can be challenging, but if you want to make permanent changes to your body, you need to make permanent changes to your lifestyle (especially as you get older).

5)  I just don't see that level of activity from fat people.  Since I've been getting into shape, I've been going to the gym, I've been hiking, I've been swimming in my apartments pool (thank god for indoor pools).  You don't see fat people at the gym very often and those who do show up don't go very often.  The people who are regularly going, they're the fit ones.  When you go hiking, when you people watch the people jogging around LaFortune Park or down on Riverside, it's not the fat people jogging.  I guess it can happen, but it seems to be a lot less common than fat activists would lead people to believe.

6)  BMI has issues, but it's not complete garbage.  Using it as the be-all end-all of your overall fitness isn't going to be accurate, especially if you have a wide skeletal build or if you are especially muscular, but it can also be a decent indication that people could stand to lose a few pounds.  Truth is, if someone is 350 lbs, I don't care how wide your skeleton is, you're not a healthy weight.

7)  Yes, thin people can also have heart disease.  That's kinda along the lines of non-smokers getting lung cancer or emphysema or non drinkers getting liver disease.  Yes, they can get it, but your odds go way up because of poor lifestyle choices.

[Rev. Rye]

1)  Desire to lose weight is inherently fat-phobic and it means you hate fat people

Not necessarily.

2)  There are no health risks to obesity

Do I really have to say this is bullshit?

3)  There is extreme health risks to losing weight because you're giving yourself an eating disorder

Sometimes it is, but it's worth noting that not everyone who wants to lose weight thinks like this:

4)  Losing weight is nearly impossible and long term weight loss IS impossible.  If you're lucky enough to lose weight, you'll just gain it right back

There is some basis in truth here, but formulating it like this, it just makes you sound like an incel who insists that getting a significant other is impossible FOR EVERYONE.

5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people

Also accurate, especially if you stick with the "can be" formulation. See Chris Farley. He actually did many of his own stunts and many of the moves he did in this famous skit are actually difficult to pull off even if you actually had Swayze's build:



Of course, just because they potentially can, doesn't mean they do.

6)  BMI is garbage since professional athletes will have a high BMI despite being in great health

This is one I actually agree with wholeheartedly. Arnold Schwarzenegger, during his Pumping Iron days, had a BMI of 30.3 and Chris-Chan, an infamous Internet personality, who, among many attributes, is shockingly obese, has a BMI of 31.0 (if the weigh-in video is any indication). How can this happen? It turns out muscle is denser than fat, and thus, someone who exercises a lot can easily register as obese according to the BMI, and someone who's so inactive they count standing up without moving as exercise can have a BMI that's actually not that different. Hell, counting Schwarzenegger's off-season weight of 260 lb, he had a BMI of 33.4, which is actually higher. That said, there are several alternatives that are less problematic than the BMI.

7)  Since thin people can have these health issues (like heart disease, sleep apnea, diabetes, ect), then that means being fat doesn't cause them

Do they legitimately not understand the concept of a risk factor?

Am I alone in thinking that this has a nasty habit of going into junk science?  Or science denialism?  Is it wrong for me to want to keep this weight off or to work hard to stay strong and healthy and, yes, thin?

No, you are not alone. Yes, it's clear that Fat Shaming is a hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth, but that doesn't justify going to the other extreme. I know these fuckers' attitudes aren't anywhere near as pervasive as the reverse, but I know that if they jump to either extreme, I WILL call bullshit, and that's honestly my attitude towards most political issues. Prejudice accompanied with power is objectively dangerous, but I believe to not challenge prejudice that's merely gaining enough traction that it could get some power just does a disservice to everyone in the long run.

[brewer]

I believe that the medical community would scoff at all of those gems.

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/123702-overview

[Chad32]

I think it can be taken too far in either direction and I don't necessarily have respect for the so called science behind the BMI scale or what doctors say is overweight.  It has been a while since I've looked into the BMI scale but I'm sure it doesn't take into account different body types and bone structures.
 I know it's a joke that fat people are supposed to use being "big boned" as an excuse for being fat but I know someone who's the very extreme example of being big boned.  His hands are genuinely like gorilla hands and I'm sure no matter how much fat he lost the sheer size of his skeletal structure would make him overweight. 

In terms of fat acceptance in general society though I think there's a good middleground in there somewhere. I think it makes sense to be at a level of fat that isn't stopping you do normal day to day things like getting out a car, walking for an hour, being able to breath normally. 

I don't have a lot of faith in BMI charts either. I'm five foot nine inches, and apparently I can be as light as 160 lbs without being considered underweight. I think that's what the lighter side was. I have never been below 180 as an adult.

[EgoDeath]

---

Ugh.  I'm having crazy people rant at me on facebook over this.

So, did you know that it's impossible to lose weight without hating fat people?  Did you know that you're a horrible person if you don't want to date someone with a lifestyle that isn't compatible with your own?  Did you know that there are absolutely no negative side effects to obesity?  Did you know long term weight loss is impossible and even trying to lose weight will hurt you?  These are just a few of the gems thrown at me over the past few days on a few facebook groups.  My crime?  I lost a lot of weight since 2016; about 130 pounds and I am VERY proud of my accomplishment.  But now I have a whole crowd of "fat acceptance" people who are jumping down my throat, telling me that I'm such a horrible person for it.

I'll be the first to admit, we shouldn't mock or laugh at people for being fat.  And, yes, there can sometimes be health issues that make weight loss difficult (although, many of those health issues would also resolve themselves with weight loss).  And, yes, anorexia and bulimia exist and are serious issues that should be discouraged.  And sometimes (most-times?) the media has a nasty habit of giving people, especially women, unrealistic body images.  I'll even go so far as to say, yes, it's your body to do with as you please, although if you ARE someone I care about personally, I'll encourage you to get healthy and if you ask me what I think, I'll tell you that being fat is hurting you.

So on those fronts, I'm mostly in agreement with fat acceptance.  And if it ended there, I'd be ok with everything.  Problem is, it doesn't.  Something about the internet brings the dumbest people with the worst beliefs to the surface and if you do a search on instigram or twitter or tumblr for terms like "body positive" or "fat acceptance," you'll find some really bad stuff.  I don't hate fat people, at least not for being fat (I hate a few individuals who are fat, but I don't hate them because they're fat).  But I'm proud to have worked my ass off and lost that weight and I feel better than I've ever felt in my life. But, yeah, because I lost that weight, I must hate fat people.

---

Here's a few of their gems: 

1)  Desire to lose weight is inherently fat-phobic and it means you hate fat people

That's simply not true. People choose to lose weight for a lot of different reasons, including, but not limited to:

1. Attempting to diminish health problems caused by obesity
2. Self-image/self-respect, or just pure vanity, i.e., wanting to look good naked
3. Attempting to combat depression and other mental health issues that obesity exacerbates
4. Health scare by doctor
5. Wanting to be in better shape to spend time with kids/family/friends

Personally, I can say that #2 and #3 in the list I made are the main reasons I wanted to lose weight. Lost about 100lbs in just over a year.

2)  There are no health risks to obesity

Patently false.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html

3)  There is extreme health risks to losing weight because you're giving yourself an eating disorder

This may be true for a very, very small amount of people... But the fact is, the majority of people who are overweight or obese can benefit from even modest weight loss. You don't have to commit to a program like Insanity or P90X, or some other intense routine; even 20-30 minutes of walking every day can help you lose weight. If you cannot walk or have issues with your mobility, there are still ways to exercise.

So, save for a few unfortunate individuals, the vast majority of people can and should exercise, even if modest weight loss is their goal.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/losing...index.html

4)  Losing weight is nearly impossible and long term weight loss IS impossible.  If you're lucky enough to lose weight, you'll just gain it right back

Losing weight and keeping it off is difficult. However, save for a few individuals who have legitimate health issues like thyroid problems, you can lose weight, and will lose weight, if you want to, and make the changes in your life necessary to lose the weight. Dieting, in and of itself, isn't going to work, more than likely. Long-term weight loss often requires a series of lifestyle changes which can start with making small changes in your daily habits concerning eating and exercising.

You don't have to start out running a marathon every day and injecting liquid Kale into your veins while listening to Eye of the Tiger. It might start with a twenty minute walk every morning, or replacing the greasy, carb heavy breakfast you usually eat with a piece of fruit, a hard-boiled egg or two and a big glass of ice water. Not everything has to happen at once... but the simple fact is, if you burn more calories than you eat, you will lose weight. Period.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/43889...n-you-eat/

5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

However, I find it hilarious when companies like Calvin Klein talk about fat acceptance... but the only overweight models they show on their Instagram feed are obese women - no fat guys with man titties hanging out, lounging on the couch. No, none of that! That's fucking gross! Only obese women are attractive, right?

I think it's nonsense. I don't find obese or overweight women attractive, generally, but I do tend to like thicker girls. It all depends though - I've been known to date petite women as well. And weirdly enough, they're probably as insecure about their bodies as the thick girls are.

6)  BMI is garbage since professional athletes will have a high BMI despite being in great health

The BMI scale has been criticized by plenty of people over the years. And, honestly, some of those criticisms are legitimate. According to some of those height/weight scaled,s I'm like 50lbs overweight, which is complete nonsense.

https://www.verywellfit.com/ideal-weight...rt-3878254

I'm 6'3"... if I weighed 177 pounds, I would look like a fucking Holocaust survivor. I promise you, in no world I want to live in, would I ever be 177 pounds. I'm about 230 right now, and I think I look pretty damn good. You definitely would not call me overweight if you saw my body. Though, I feel I could stand to lose about 30 more pounds. I could maybe see myself at 190 if I wanted to get really cut and defined. But that often involves extreme dieting to the point of practically starving yourself. A lot of those guys who are not like bulky muscular, but just cut and defined, are doing pretty extreme things to look like that and I think it's a bit silly.

So, to be honest, some criticisms of that scale are legitimate. But it's a guide, not a set-in-stone fact. There are many different methods to calculate whether or not you're overweight, and the BMI scale is just one of them.

7)  Since thin people can have these health issues (like heart disease, sleep apnea, diabetes, ect), then that means being fat doesn't cause them

Simply not true.

Am I alone in thinking that this has a nasty habit of going into junk science?  Or science denialism?  Is it wrong for me to want to keep this weight off or to work hard to stay strong and healthy and, yes, thin?

No, you're not alone. It's certainly gone too far, and well into science denialism in some circles. I think it's okay to be fat, and admit that it's unhealthy, and simply choose to live that way because you don't care about the potential consequences. But to deny scientific facts in the pursuit of that agenda is silly.

The fact is, if you're overweight and/or obese, you're not as healthy as you would be if you were at a normal weight. And, regardless of how you view the BMI, you can look in the mirror and tell if you're fat. I mean, you just can. And, in all honestly, can you have some soft spots here and there and still be healthy? Yeah, probably, and that's fine. Not every guy has to look like a Greek god, and not every girl has to like Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba. In fact, a lot of men don't want to look like Greek gods, and a lot of women don't want to look like those fit celebrities. And that's okay.

I think it's alright to say, "Hey, I'm happy with myself, even if I could stand to lose some weight." That's alright. However, shame, a lack of self-respect and poor self-image are what cause a lot of people to decide to lose weight. And if that's what those people use for their motivation, then that's okay too. Self-loathing definitely played into my decision to lose weight, and I legitimately feel better about myself now.

I'll be honest, I looked at myself in the mirror one day and said, "I'm sick of being fat. I'm sick of looking like this. I'm sick of attractive women not giving me attention or denying me. I'm sick of being seen as 'the fat guy' by male friends."

And you know what? No one owed me anything. It's not that I "deserved more." I simply chose to change. I chose to start losing the weight. Now, I feel better about myself than I ever have in my life and it's completely worth it. Completely.

So good on you for losing the weight, and here's to both of us keeping it off!

[Cod]

5)  Fat people can be just as physically active as non-fat people

This in my opinion is definitely true.. I've seen fat people nearly running to be first in the queue at a buffet.