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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 2:08 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2019 at 2:09 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 22, 2019 at 9:57 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: To my knowledge, any argument against being coming from non-being hinges on a chain of causality; but if there's absolutely nothing, there's no causality either. What would keep non-being from becoming being?
Couldn't the answer be in the question itself? Non-being.
Personally, I prefer an eternal universe to a universe that just pops up out of nowhere because for me, something had to always exist.
Of course I'm presuming we're referring to absolute nothingness when speaking of non-being. Otherwise, of course being can come from non-being. At one point we were each non-being (before we were conceived).
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 3:13 pm
Well, none of you can prove that I am a brain in a jar and all of you are a figment of my imagination 
Sorry, couldn't help it. All theistic arguments can be reduced to solipsism.
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 4:29 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2019 at 4:29 pm by Alex K.)
(November 22, 2019 at 10:24 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Consider the size of Earth compared to the size of the Universe.
Now consider how likely the answer to the Big Questions will be found here.
So thee visible universe is 90 billion lightyears across. That's 9*10^10 ly. One year has ~ 3*10^7 seconds, so the visible universe is 27*10^17 =2.7*10^18 lightseconds across. The earth is roughly 1/25 of a lightsecond wide, so the visible universe is about
67*10^18=6.7*10^19 earths wide. To get the fraction of the volume, we take the third power and find that the visible Universe has the volume of ~ 300*10^57 earth sized cubes and thus roughly 600*10^57=6*10^59 earths. Assuming equal distribution, the probability of finding the answer to the Big Questions on earth is therefore smaller than about 10^-60.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 4:53 pm
Me no math.
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 6:07 pm
(November 22, 2019 at 4:53 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Me no math.
You said consider the size of the universe, no backsies!
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 8:07 pm
(November 21, 2019 at 9:14 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (November 21, 2019 at 7:04 pm)Alex K Wrote: Prove me wrong...
I don't think there's a coherent deductive argument that can be made to prove this assertion false. Of course, it is far from clear what exactly is meant by being or non-being, but I wager that for any ontologically interesting definition of these terms, there is no way to show the statement to be fallacious.
Maybe you're right. But I can't make sense of how something that wasn't just suddenly is and with no prior material or whatever.
One thing we must all accept is that reality is not constrained by our ability to understand it. I am already aware of properties of the universe which far exceed my ability to understand.
The universe doesn't care. It goes on existing, completely indifferent to my inability (or your's) to understand it.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 9:45 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2019 at 9:59 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 22, 2019 at 8:07 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: (November 21, 2019 at 9:14 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Maybe you're right. But I can't make sense of how something that wasn't just suddenly is and with no prior material or whatever.
One thing we must all accept is that reality is not constrained by our ability to understand it. I am already aware of properties of the universe which far exceed my ability to understand.
The universe doesn't care. It goes on existing, completely indifferent to my inability (or your's) to understand it.
Sure, the universe could be more of a mindfuck than it already is. But are we epistemologically justified, as far as we know, to accept the idea that being can come from absolute no-being given how counter intuitive it is and seemingly illogical and given we haven't observed such a thing?
What do we even mean by "non-being"? And "coming from" ... it?
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 10:38 pm
(November 22, 2019 at 9:45 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (November 22, 2019 at 8:07 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: One thing we must all accept is that reality is not constrained by our ability to understand it. I am already aware of properties of the universe which far exceed my ability to understand.
The universe doesn't care. It goes on existing, completely indifferent to my inability (or your's) to understand it.
Sure, the universe could be more of a mindfuck than it already is. But are we epistemologically justified, as far as we know, to accept the idea that being can come from absolute no-being given how counter intuitive it is and seemingly illogical and given we haven't observed such a thing?
What do we even mean by "non-being"? And "coming from" ... it?
I will say that if science was completely intuitive, it would be cubic shit tons easier, and everybody would be doing it.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 22, 2019 at 11:10 pm
(November 22, 2019 at 10:38 pm)Fireball Wrote: (November 22, 2019 at 9:45 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Sure, the universe could be more of a mindfuck than it already is. But are we epistemologically justified, as far as we know, to accept the idea that being can come from absolute no-being given how counter intuitive it is and seemingly illogical and given we haven't observed such a thing?
What do we even mean by "non-being"? And "coming from" ... it?
I will say that if science was completely intuitive, it would be cubic shit tons easier, and everybody would be doing it.
No, I'm fine with the results of scientific studies yielding counterintuitive results, but I wonder if we're jumping the gun here without any science showing us this is possible and given it seems to defy logic. You have Krauss who wrote a book about the universe coming out of "nothing" but even he concedes it didn't really pop out of literal absolute nothing.
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RE: Being can come from non-being
November 23, 2019 at 12:35 am
Science can be counterintuitive but it should not be counter-rational (or irrational). It has to appeal to our reason, and I think Grandizer is saying that this idea doesn't.
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