The hijab (etc) is immodest

[WinterHold]

The only way to stop such behavior is to have clear, official laws and rules, to stop that behavior at bay before it hurts and destroys.
Before it causes not just psychological harm; but also physical harm.

I agree that clear official rules can go some way toward damping down psychological abuse. 

Actually "can go some way" is a pretty light description for the effect of rules on a society: good structured rules can eradicate many forms of psychological abuse, societies that witness a good-structured constitution are way different than societies with poor-structured laws.

But I think we also said the other day that it is intrinsic to humans to find ways to avoid rules that are handed down from above. Whether that "above" is said to be God or just human authority.

Yes; humans always try to find ways around the rules; but it's not mandatory, they can also choose ceasing to find ways around the rules if they believed that the aftermath hurts others or even themselves.

So there is something more difficult that is necessary, I think. And I think that severe self-criticism is crucial. Because we know from experience that people who do harm generally feel they are justified. Therefore when we feel justified is exactly the time we need the most severe self-examination. 

I learned this most directly from William Blake, but it is intrinsic in Christian thought: obedience to the law can be a method to avoid empathy, and a justification for our own cruelty. This is true whether it's law from "above" or peer pressure.

Sever self-criticism is the key. Personally; I think one should question their actions at all times, criticizing what they find doesn't fit their moral law.

[EgoDeath]

All I understand, is that there are some insecure men who want women to be not-free to cover their own bodies.
You seem like you can't handle rejection from women.

Actually, you'll find that the vast majority of rational adults simply believe that women, just like men, should be free to wear, or not wear, almost anything they want.

The only problem anyone finds with the hijab is that it is a symbol of the oppression of women within the Muslim world. That some women have been brainwashed to think that the hijab is a good thing means very little, and is akin to a Christian child being scared of swearing, or eating an extra cookie, lest they end up burning in hell for their ungodly transgression. In fact, no rational adults seem to think there's any good reason for a woman to cover her hair. Covering breasts and the rear end is one thing... but hair? Who the fuck actually thinks that? Oh, it's only religious bigots. Imagine that.

Even still, if a woman is going to insist that much that she wants, herself, to wear a hijab, then so be it. I simply think there should be more education so women who insist on wearing a hijab know exactly what it is that they're wearing and why.

[WinterHold]

All I understand, is that there are some insecure men who want women to be not-free to cover their own bodies.
You seem like you can't handle rejection from women.

Actually, you'll find that the vast majority of rational adults simply believe that women, just like men, should be free to wear, or not wear, almost anything they want.

The only problem anyone finds with the hijab is that it is a symbol of the oppression of women within the Muslim world. That some women have been brainwashed to think that the hijab is a good thing means very little, and is akin to a Christian child being scared of swearing, or eating an extra cookie, lest they end up burning in hell for their ungodly transgression. In fact, no rational adults seem to think there's any good reason for a woman to cover her hair. Covering breasts and the rear end is one thing... but hair? Who the fuck actually thinks that? Oh, it's only religious bigots. Imagine that.

Even still, if a woman is going to insist that much that she wants, herself, to wear a hijab, then so be it. I simply think there should be more education so women who insist on wearing a hijab know exactly what it is that they're wearing and why.

"Hijab is symbol of oppression" is a vague statement, good to be a motto of an extreme rightist party, but the Muslim women who choose to wear the Hijab would disagree with you. 

Women have the right to wear what they want (.) full stop.
Don't make the mistake of turning into one of those rightists who assault women wearing the Hijab to strip them by force.

[Belacqua]

Actually "can go some way" is a pretty light description for the effect of rules on a society: good structured rules can eradicate many forms of psychological abuse, societies that witness a good-structured constitution are way different than societies with poor-structured laws.

Granted.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, as I'm not against rules. There are a number of them I'd like to see more strictly enforced. 

"Hijab is symbol of oppression" is a vague statement

Yes, it calls to mind the function of how symbols work. There's no intrinsic meaning in a star made of two triangles, or a crescent moon with a star -- the meaning is read into the mark by people. 

If Mr. Ego wants to call the hijab a symbol of something, that's his own decision. He is making it a symbol of something that he himself has judged, but only to himself. His decision will have no weight with the many people who see it as having a very different meaning. And since it's their choice and their cultural tradition, only an egomaniac could try to declare otherwise. 

[WinterHold]

Actually "can go some way" is a pretty light description for the effect of rules on a society: good structured rules can eradicate many forms of psychological abuse, societies that witness a good-structured constitution are way different than societies with poor-structured laws.

Granted.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, as I'm not against rules. There are a number of them I'd like to see more strictly enforced.

I'm interested to know these rules you like to see enforced.

"Hijab is symbol of oppression" is a vague statement

Yes, it calls to mind the function of how symbols work. There's no intrinsic meaning in a star made of two triangles, or a crescent moon with a star -- the meaning is read into the mark by people. 

Humans underestimate the effects of stuff on their minds; a scary thought -but very true one- is how things like stress and propaganda shape our minds and sometimes our whole judgement.

[EgoDeath]

"Hijab is symbol of oppression" is a vague statement,

I admit, it is a vague statement. Unfortunately, the specifics of the situation are even more alarming than the vague generalization I made earlier.

Specific situations where women are criminally prosecuted for not wearing their hijabs, or wearing hijabs that are not up to standard. Specific situations where women are whipped for attending a party with men. Or stoned for adultery... so on and so forth. You know, real whole cultural traditions that have nothing to do with oppression. Totes just a nice little tradition... Oppression, where? Not here, say I!

good to be a motto of an extreme rightist party, but the Muslim women who choose to wear the Hijab would disagree with you.

Yeah, that's a cute little tactic you're trying out there. The difference being, I openly criticize Christianity as well. I have my entire stay here at the boards and will continue to. I'm arguing for the freedom to wear whatever you want, unlike many Muslims who believe that women are obliged to do so and should be forced to do so. If I force you to wear a dunce cap under the threat of criminal prosecution and/or physical violence, it doesn't make the situation better for me to cry, "Yeah, but Atlas wants to wear the dunce cap!"

Just stop man.

Women have the right to wear what they want (.) full stop.
Don't make the mistake of turning into one of those rightists who assault women wearing the Hijab to strip them by force.

Totally agree that women have the right to wear what they want. The difference being that even if I think a Muslim woman is ignorant and misinformed for happily and willfully wearing a hijab, I'm not going to force her to do otherwise, because I don't believe in doing things like that to anyone, because people should be allowed to do what they want. This is in direct contrast with many extremist Muslims who truly believe they SHOULD be able to force a woman to dress a certain away, among other things.

Now, let me stop some of you guys before you even try it. Yes, I realize that most Muslims are not like what I'm describing, and that's great! If you, Atlas, are not one of these extreme Muslims, then good for you. But these extremist Muslims we all know about are following their little book down to the t, and this is wear these "traditions" come from.

My only hope is that if a woman does choose to wear a hijab, that she truly understands what that tradition is, and how it is something that is forced upon a lot of women around the world. So if she knows all of that and still chooses to wear one, I think that's unfortunate. But I'm not going to compel anyone to do anything other than what they want to do, because unlike many Muslims, I don't believe in forcing women to do things they don't want.

Stop trying to twist and turn my words around. If you want to have a real conversation here, let's do that.

If Mr. Ego wants to call the hijab a symbol of something, that's his own decision. He is making it a symbol of something that he himself has judged, but only to himself. His decision will have no weight with the many people who see it as having a very different meaning. And since it's their choice and their cultural tradition, only an egomaniac could try to declare otherwise. 

Well, no, this is not my interpretation alone. It is something that is forced on many women in many areas of the world. This is stuff that exists and occurs outside of what I think, LOL. And stop being so dramatically dense, Bel. You are much too smart to be falling for Atlas' nonsense. Reread my responses, please.

And relax with the childish antics...

OH, see what he did guys?! Ego is in my name, and then he took ego and used it in a different way to insult me! Woah! How insanely clever!

Just stop bel. Once again, you wana have a real conversation? I'm game. If you're gonna continue to act like a child, that's on you, but I'm embarrassed for you.

[Belacqua]

I'm interested to know these rules you like to see enforced.

I used to get really angry about bad drivers, but since I've stopped riding my bicycle everywhere I don't notice them as much. 

Mostly I guess I see the bigger immoralities of the world so clearly front and center that issues of precisely how much of the body we can show seem pretty trivial. I mean, the US has spent literally trillions of dollars on wars which, the Pentagon admits, have accomplished nothing -- though we know for sure that they have ruined millions of lives. This was instead of spending money in ways that would clearly benefit people. 

Religion is the least of our worries at this point. 

Humans underestimate the effects of stuff on their minds; a scary thought -but very true one- is how things like stress and propaganda shape our minds and sometimes our whole judgement.

Absolutely. And I think this is largely intentional on the part of those in power. The US fights the evil influences of those terrible foreign cultures -- because they are different! -- and thus we don't have to see the evils that the US does everywhere. We Americans are as guilty as anyone, so it's easier to point fingers at headscarves. 

But I have decided that rules against men swinging their dicks in public are terrible impositions on freedom. So I am going to make Hane's All-Cotton Briefs the new symbol of oppression! Off with the briefs!

[WinterHold]

I'm interested to know these rules you like to see enforced.

I used to get really angry about bad drivers, but since I've stopped riding my bicycle everywhere I don't notice them as much. 

Mostly I guess I see the bigger immoralities of the world so clearly front and center that issues of precisely how much of the body we can show seem pretty trivial. I mean, the US has spent literally trillions of dollars on wars which, the Pentagon admits, have accomplished nothing -- though we know for sure that they have ruined millions of lives. This was instead of spending money in ways that would clearly benefit people. 

Religion is the least of our worries at this point.

Modern war is usually a disaster; the effects of modern weapons is so severe and terrible. The damage to structures and life is and indication for how terrible it is.
Yes the causes are mainly economical. Religion is a mere symphony used to gather more warriors.

Humans underestimate the effects of stuff on their minds; a scary thought -but very true one- is how things like stress and propaganda shape our minds and sometimes our whole judgement.

Absolutely. And I think this is largely intentional on the part of those in power. The US fights the evil influences of those terrible foreign cultures -- because they are different! -- and thus we don't have to see the evils that the US does everywhere. We Americans are as guilty as anyone, so it's easier to point fingers at headscarves. 

But I have decided that rules against men swinging their dicks in public are terrible impositions on freedom. So I am going to make Hane's All-Cotton Briefs the new symbol of oppression! Off with the briefs!

Notice: my bold is the symphony of justification I told you about in the previous point.
If the interest demanded; the symphony would change. The American foreign policy is a prisoner of interests; the moral laws that the founding fathers of the U.S claimed just evaporated in the face of interests.

For men; I say let them swing their dicks as long as they are not causing any psychological or physical harm

[EgoDeath]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-sud..._n_3894950

Ah, yes, another very specific instance involving the oppression of women in relation to a hijab.

[Fake Messiah]

Religion is the least of our worries at this point. 

For millions of people it is a worry. For instance if you're a pregnant woman in catholic hospital then it's a big worry.





If you're a Muslim in Myanmar then it's a big worry from Buddhists
https://youtu.be/hqMSfT9eI6o

If you're a woman in many of Muslim countries than it's a worry for getting flogged by easily braking many of religious taboos.