Hell is justified.

[Brian37]

It's actually pretty hard to motivate yourself to torture.  The people who do it professionally get rotated so that it doesn't scramble their shit.  I think that you might find it alot easier than you think, even with hitler, to pass on torture.

Humans are not hard wired to torture others for the most part. But for the vile dictators who have come about in human history, there is always something missing in their upbringing even if  a mere lack of empathy. 

And "rotating" people out, still does not change the holocaust, Hitler, Stalin or Po Pot.  Attila The Hun,  was a brutal authoritarian. And even in ancient China, the Terracotta Warriors were living under a extreme authoritarian rule that would make Orwell blush. 

As long as our species has existed in our current form, there have been points worldwide where a leader has managed to get otherwise reasonable people to do horrible things.

[The Grand Nudger]

You imagine that they were being less than reasonable when they did..but that's probably not true, and really doesn't have much to do with what I was suggesting.

I'm suggesting that you, and in fact most human beings...whether you have "reasonable" reasons, or other-than, are going to find it hard to torture people. We don't need to imagine a hell for this thought experiment, there are plenty of ways to torture people that don't take a fairy tale ball pit full of earthworms made from razor blades. Do you find it hard to refrain from using any of them, when you're in the presence of a certifiable villain (or when you consider being in their presence)?

Yes, there are Bad People™.....but is it actually difficult for you to avoid torturing them?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Humans are not hard wired to torture others for the most part. But for the vile dictators who have come about in human history, there is always something missing in their upbringing even if  a mere lack of empathy. 

The most common characteristic of a serial murderer is a lack of empathy.

[arewethereyet]

It's actually pretty hard to motivate yourself to torture.  The people who do it professionally get rotated so that it doesn't scramble their shit.  I think that you might find it alot easier than you think, even with hitler, to pass on torture.

Humans are not hard wired to torture others for the most part. But for the vile dictators who have come about in human history, there is always something missing in their upbringing even if  a mere lack of empathy. 

And "rotating" people out, still does not change the holocaust, Hitler, Stalin or Po Pot.  Attila The Hun,  was a brutal authoritarian. And even in ancient China, the Terracotta Warriors were living under a extreme authoritarian rule that would make Orwell blush. 

As long as our species has existed in our current form, there have been points worldwide where a leader has managed to get otherwise reasonable people to do horrible things.

Lack of empathy isn't necessarily about a person's upbringing.  Some people just aren't wired for empathy.  Some of those may learn to fake it to fit in better, if they care to do so.  Empathy is being able to understand and relate to what others are experiencing usually through having a similar experience.

Teaching a child to share and not to hit other children is part of upbringing.  Learning what not to do doesn't ensure there is any empathy is involved but merely knowing there are rules that are to be followed. 

Manners and acceptable behavior can be taught.  Empathy - in the real sense - can't.

---

Humans are not hard wired to torture others for the most part. But for the vile dictators who have come about in human history, there is always something missing in their upbringing even if  a mere lack of empathy. 

The most common characteristic of a serial murderer is a lack of empathy.

Stir that up with some animal torture and a heavily religious domineering mother and throw in some late age bed-wetting and you have most of the making for serial killing.

[WinterHold]

God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Okay, your god is an animalistic being. Dumb animal without consideration for the pain it causes to others. Thanks.

There are basic feelings that humans feel and experience essentially.
Pain is one of them.

Even in the paradigm of any society, there must be a "specialized institution that inflict pain to organize the humans living in that society and deal with the foreign challenges that the society might face".

Inflicting pain on a foreign society is known to be handled via issuing economical sanctions and military intervention.

You do realize that economical sanctions are a method of torture to keep people in line, right?
While military intervention is the more brutal option to force other societies to obey.

All these are methods of torture, but its issuers wear formal fancy suites.

So I have a very big sarcastic smile when I hear people like you calling "God" an animal, while your society is copy-catting God, inflicting torture via economical sanctions and in other cases fire that burns.

---

God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Your god is supposed to be better than human, isn't he? Perfection, even? And as mere humans we should strive towards your god's perfection, shouldn't we?
Doesn't that mean we should become better torturers?

Yes. You don't just strive to his perfection; your society is copy-catting God but in a very bad way.

Torturing humans is very normal when the one inflicting the torture is not even human.

Nope. Now you claim that your god is sub-human.

He's not even human or close to being one; that's the point I'm repeating here.

Our problem is with humans torturing humans.

And that humans have a higher moral standard than your god.

If morals are "ignoring facts and ignoring the basic human emotions", then that's one lying to themselves and call it "higher standard". You can't rule without pain; or else close the prisons and courts and see what happens.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's an impressive comparison coming from you. The Great Satan is copycatting your god? Well, why are you complaining, then? That shit is jus-ti-fied.

We're just like your god is. It's amazing that you don't like us more, seeing as how you worship that one.

[WinterHold]

God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Torturing humans is very normal when the one inflicting the torture is not even human.
Our problem is with humans torturing humans.

So you're saying it's God's nature to torture, like it's a scorpion's nature to sting? Like a venomous wasp, God has no moral agency, you disturb God and God tortures you because that is just what God does.

One of the many problems with your comparison is that if we can't say God is evil when God tortures for the same reason that we can't say a bear is evil when it mauls someone; we also can't say God is good when God elevates a soul to heaven, just like we can't say a lion is good if it chases off a hyena that was about to attack us. Only a being with moral agency can be bad or good, when we call a dog a 'good boy', we aren't saying the dog knows the difference between good and evil and chooses good; we're saying the dog is obedient and affectionate and we like that.

The exception is that God is a rational entity. He acts with constraints that he himself obligated himself to act upon; the Quran -which I believe in- listed many of these constraints.

Animals are not rational. The "mercy" for example is a constraint that God obligated himself to; thus you can see people "live, love, smile, laugh...", but "justice" is also another obligation God has; thus hell and suffering exist.

[The Grand Nudger]

He doesn't sound very rational, but fuck it, let's imagine he is. If this is the exception and has some relationship to making an entity a justified torturer...well, we're rational entities that also follow rules and constraints, and we have mercy...so....

---

Hey, as an aside, if he hit you harder, or for longer...would you love us more? How many eons of torture would it take for you to wave the red white and blue?

[Chad32]

So you're saying it's God's nature to torture, like it's a scorpion's nature to sting? Like a venomous wasp, God has no moral agency, you disturb God and God tortures you because that is just what God does.

One of the many problems with your comparison is that if we can't say God is evil when God tortures for the same reason that we can't say a bear is evil when it mauls someone; we also can't say God is good when God elevates a soul to heaven, just like we can't say a lion is good if it chases off a hyena that was about to attack us. Only a being with moral agency can be bad or good, when we call a dog a 'good boy', we aren't saying the dog knows the difference between good and evil and chooses good; we're saying the dog is obedient and affectionate and we like that.

The exception is that God is a rational entity. He acts with constraints that he himself obligated himself to act upon; the Quran -which I believe in- listed many of these constraints.

Animals are not rational. The "mercy" for example is a constraint that God obligated himself to; thus you can see people "live, love, smile, laugh...", but "justice" is also another obligation God has; thus hell and suffering exist.

We're also rational being with constraints, but most of us don't derive pleasure from torture and killing. In fact we don't generally kill at all, if we can help it. Except for that low percent of the population that are psychopaths. Now if your god is so powerful, and so knowledgeable, he should be able to figure out solutions that don't involve killing people, but he chooses to do it. He declared that everyone deserves death since the day they're born. So he's a psychopath who doesn't understand mercy, or justice. When you're only merciful to those who worship you, that's not real mercy. Even Hitler could show that kind of mercy.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Animals are not rational. The "mercy" for example is a constraint that God obligated himself to; thus you can see people "live, love, smile, laugh...", but "justice" is also another obligation God has; thus hell and suffering exist.

One cannot be both merciful and just.  Justice negates mercy.

Boru