Muslim against music

[Thor]

I'm afraid he is right Rayaan...from an outsider's perspective muslims virtually 'worship' the ground muhammad walked on aka Mecca. And the edict to make the "pilgrimage" (sorry I don't know the correct term for it) to Mecca just reinforces it. It really isn't that different to xtians making the pilgrimage to Jerusalem's' "holy sites" or a jews pilgrimage to "the wailing wall"

It cracks me up when I read about these idiots making their pilgrimage (which involves stupidity like throwing pebbles at a post to symbolize their rejection of "Satan") and invariably there is a stampede that kills dozens of people at one of their shrines. Yeah, you take your family to a "holy" place and you have to worry about getting stomped to death by people rushing to the next attraction. It's like Disney World in reverse.

[KichigaiNeko]

I'm afraid he is right Rayaan...from an outsider's perspective muslims virtually 'worship' the ground muhammad walked on aka Mecca. And the edict to make the "pilgrimage" (sorry I don't know the correct term for it) to Mecca just reinforces it. It really isn't that different to xtians making the pilgrimage to Jerusalem's' "holy sites" or a jews pilgrimage to "the wailing wall"

It cracks me up when I read about these idiots making their pilgrimage (which involves stupidity like throwing pebbles at a post to symbolize their rejection of "Satan") and invariably there is a stampede that kills dozens of people at one of their shrines. Yeah, you take your family to a "holy" place and you have to worry about getting stomped to death by people rushing to the next attraction. It's like Disney World in reverse.

Well basically it is like that Thor...or so it seems to me. The comercialism from the hajj alone and the $$$ of revenue snaped up by the Saudi Government..... bit like Disneyland for muslims in a way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

In its modern period, Mecca has seen tremendous expansion in size and infrastructure. However, most of its historic buildings have been demolished in recent years because of the Saudi government's religious views and disapproval of undue reverence being given to such buildings.

---

The modern day city is the capital of Saudi Arabia's Makkah Province, in the historic Hejaz region. With a population of 1.7 million (2008), the city is located 73 km (45 mi) inland from Jeddah in a narrow valley at a height of 277 m (909 ft) above sea level.

---

Every year, millions of Muslims perform the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca walking seven times around the Kaaba. More than 13 million people visit Mecca annually.[6] Similarly to Medina, entrance to Mecca is restricted to Muslims only; non-Muslims are neither permitted to enter nor travel through the city

EconomyThe Meccan economy has been heavily dependent on the annual pilgrimage. As one academic put it, "[Meccans] have no means of earning a living but by serving the hajjis."

---

Economy generated from the Hajj, in fact, not only powers the Meccan economy but has historically had far reaching effects on the economy of the entire Hijaz and Najd regions. The income was generated in a number of ways. One method was taxing the pilgrims. Taxes especially increased during the Great Depression, and many of these taxes existed as late as 1972. Another way the Hajj generates income is through services to pilgrims. For example, the Saudi national airline, Saudi Arabian Airlines, generates 12% of its income from the pilgrimage. Fares paid by pilgrims to reach Mecca by land also generate income; as do the hotels and lodging companies that house them.[34]

---

The city takes in more than $100 million, while the Saudi government spends about $50 million on services for the Hajj. There are some industries and factories in the city, but Mecca no longer plays a major role in Saudi Arabia's economy, which is mainly based on oil exports.[46] The few industries operating in Mecca include textiles, furniture, and utensils. The majority of the economy is service oriented.

[Thor]

Well basically it is like that Thor...or so it seems to me. The comercialism from the hajj alone and the $$$ of revenue snaped up by the Saudi Government..... bit like Disneyland for muslims in a way.

That's how I see it as well. And, of course, the govt of Saudi Arabia has no reason to discourage the pilgrimage. How much cash do foreigners spend in the country while they visit these "holy" sites? And it certainly employs thousands of people who provide services and souvenirs to the gullible. I've often thought that I should open a Christian book store. How great would it be to make a living by selling crap to deluded people? Of course, I'd have to pretend to be one of them because I doubt they'd hand their money over to someone they know to be an atheist if they're buying bibles and figurines of angels. I don't know that I could pull that off without vomiting.

[Tearjerker]

Well basically it is like that Thor...or so it seems to me. The comercialism from the hajj alone and the $$$ of revenue snaped up by the Saudi Government..... bit like Disneyland for muslims in a way.

Exactly, Hajj sort of gives a common Muslims some sort of divine degree. Every Muslim is a Muslim, until they go to hajj, they become hajjis, simple put suddenly a simple guy becomes more than just a man of faith.

And believe me when I say it's exactly like what you said, a Disneyland for Muslims. And to governments that hold the key to such a holy ground it is just pure money maker. Saudi Arabia, Iran, even Iraq are benefiting from it. But Saudis have the greatest share as every kind of muslim is attracted to Mecca, while only Shia Muslims are going to Iran and Iraq. You just need to see the madness there. I talk about my own country now, which is Iran, and the city of Mashhad which lays there the shrine of Imam Reza (the 8th Shia Imam). It's a gold mine, you just need to see it, most people - desperate people with an urgent need of a miracle in their lives come there drop an offering of money, I've seen travel checks and other sort of fat-ly written checks inside where the supposed coffin of Imam Reza is, people used to come there and tie themselves to the fences of the shrine till they get what they came for. Actually don't know if it is still like that cause haven't been there in many years.

We have countless Imamzadeh [this one supposed to be the shrines of Shia Imams many offspring] of which by their standards of getting laid [They had many wives and Sigheh (Temporary marriages)] it is still too damn much and people go there and do the same practices.

This is too much off-topic and I apologize for it.

[KichigaiNeko]

Not at all Tearjerker...it is still "On Topic" just slightly divergent (as happens on this forum) by the very nature of examining religion, its religious practices and the people who practice their 'faith'.

I can only speak of a few people I have met and gotten to know well who are muslim and hajj was not on their agenda. Funny though they played music and were probably more xtian than some of the xtians I have met and know well.

So we can safely assume that music is a definite 'no-no' in Mecca and these other 'holy' sites you speak of?? Random thought: if music was added to the hajj it really WOULD be like Disneyland.

[OnlyNatural]

OnlyNatural, sorry for going off-topic. If you want to ask any other questions about music in Islam then feel free to do so.

No worries, I enjoy reading the tangents that spin off this topic

I know pretty much nothing about Islam's stance on music. Music is such a central part of most (if not all) cultures, so it's hard to imagine that any group of people wants to suppress or eliminate it. I realize that not all Muslims share this author's hardline stance, obviously, but I guess he's another example of what happens when you try to take your religion too far. Just look at the book he wrote, too:

"A heart filled with music will not have room for God's words," he writes in his book Contemporary Issues, which also defends child marriages, wife beating, polygamy and killing apostates while calling homosexuality "evil and dangerous."

There's nothing like religion for fueling injustice, intolerance and cruelty in those who take it too seriously.

[Rayaan]

"and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable"

Rayaan, you say it's the stars that are inviolable but that sentence says he renders the heaven inviolable. Not the stars/lamps whatever. Because it says "it" and not "them" it is clearly talking about the heaven being Inviolable. So the sky.

Then it seems that I was wrong in referring to the stars instead of the heaven/sky.

But still, the main idea is that the beauty of the heaven cannot be changed or altered because it is safely guarded. The word "inviolable" (used by some translators of the Quran) is the the word "wahifthan" in Arabic. Others have used the words "firmly secured" or "protected" instead of "inviolable." So, they are all correct because they have pretty much the same meanings. Now lets go to the question below:

So the sky cannot be transgressed? We can't get into space?

No, because the verse doesn't say that we can't go into space. Rather, the heaven is kept inviolable from the devil (and I should've said this earlier).

How do we know this? It's because there is another verse (earlier in the Quran) which says:
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with an adornment in the stars; and have secured it from every rebellious Satan (Chapter 37, Verses 6-7).

Also, the context of the word "inviolable" in that verse does not mean "unable to travel."

The word "wahifthan" in Arabic means to be "guarded" or "protected" while some of the translators use the word "inviolable." But they all have a synonymous meaning. So, sometimes it is more helpful to refer to the Arabic text instead of the English because it's not that easy to translate the Quran word-by-word while keeping the exact meanings.

For instance you can make fun of Jesus in front of a Christian and live to see another day. But do that to Muhammad and you would wish to not live to see another day.

But of course not all Muslims are like that.

I personally don't care if someone draws a picture of Muhammad or not. It's not a big deal to me. I've seen cartoons of Muhammad in the forum as well but they don't get under my skin.

And believe me when I say it's exactly like what you said, a Disneyland for Muslims.

To non-Muslims, it might seem like we are going to Hajj only as a place for tourist attraction but actually that's not the main reason for going there.

[Autumnlicious]

"A heart filled with music will not have room for God's words," he writes in his book Contemporary Issues, which also defends child marriages, wife beating, polygamy and killing apostates while calling homosexuality "evil and dangerous."

There's nothing like religion for fueling injustice, intolerance and cruelty in those who take it too seriously.

Could it be? Suppressing all aspects of your life to focus one thing can cause you to look, act and smell like a fundamentalist prick?

Turban me surprised.

[Skipper]

"and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable"

Rayaan, you say it's the stars that are inviolable but that sentence says he renders the heaven inviolable. Not the stars/lamps whatever. Because it says "it" and not "them" it is clearly talking about the heaven being Inviolable. So the sky.

Then it seems that I was wrong in referring to the stars instead of the heaven/sky.

But still, the main idea is that the beauty of the heaven cannot be changed or altered because it is safely guarded. The word "inviolable" (used by some translators of the Quran) is the the word "wahifthan" in Arabic. Others have used the words "firmly secured" or "protected" instead of "inviolable." So, they are all correct because they have pretty much the same meanings. Now lets go to the question below:

So the sky cannot be transgressed? We can't get into space?

No, because the verse doesn't say that we can't go into space. Rather, the heaven is kept inviolable from the devil (and I should've said this earlier).

How do we know this? It's because there is another verse (earlier in the Quran) which says:
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with an adornment in the stars; and have secured it from every rebellious Satan (Chapter 37, Verses 6-7).

Also, the context of the word "inviolable" in that verse does not mean "unable to travel."

The word "wahifthan" in Arabic means to be "guarded" or "protected" while some of the translators use the word "inviolable." But they all have a synonymous meaning. So, sometimes it is more helpful to refer to the Arabic text instead of the English because it's not that easy to translate the Quran word-by-word while keeping the exact meanings.

I'm going to sit down with the quran one day and tell you which words I want to change the context of and which word has been used wrong and make up some random link to some earlier verse to make yet another context.

Give me enough time and I will change the whole context of your religion so that it looks like you worship cheese.

How can something you claim to be the perfect word of god and so beautifully written be soooooo open to misinterpretation? The same misinterpretations that lead to people killing each other over slight differences in how they see the same bit of text.

[Rayaan]

How can something you claim to be the perfect word of god and so beautifully written be soooooo open to misinterpretation? The same misinterpretations that lead to people killing each other over slight differences in how they see the same bit of text.

This is because there are statements in the Quran that cannot be interpreted correctly without understanding the whole of the Quran.

The people who mis-interpret them only take small verses from the Quran and try to justify that they can kill infidels and whatnot. But this is not right because they are neglecting the preceding verses which set up the context and the historical background of the verses. That's just the way it is. The trouble is with Muslims but not the Quran itself.