Was Prophet Mohammed a caravan thieve?

[The Grand Nudger]

Boogeyman? Br'er Bear? Old Man Crow?

Equating geopolitical realities with folklore is an impressive failure, even for a god botherer.

[R00tKiT]

That's all just academic, though. 

Details are actually what matters. As I said, to get a feeling of why the hadith methodology works, one simply has to delve into it. Being able to spot false quotes about your favorite writer is the best analogy I can think of.

Similarly, people who read every inch of what's reported of Muhammad, recite it, analyze its semantics and compare it to close variants, end up being really good at discerning what's genuine from fakes. It's really learning by doing, nothing to be spoon fed to the outsider.

The christians left alot out of their magic book as well.  Does that convince you that the christ bit is reliable?  Or are you with me on that, laughing at the mere conjecture that this was some indication of reliability?

In the case of christians, it's enough to know they treat the origin of their gospels as a problem. Lots of ink spilled about the synoptic problem obviously doesn't help reliability much. It's just not the same with the Qur'an, an audio book, verbatim, from mouth to ear. Many ears reporting the same version does increase reliability, especially when these ears happen to belong to astute military leaders and social reformers who surrounded Muhammad.

If crowds of people report Luther King saying  "I have a dream" - and suppose there are no cameras, would you doubt it said it? Or, at the very least, that the saying must have one true variant.?

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Boogeyman? Br'er Bear?  Old Man Crow?

Equating geopolitical realities with folklore is an impressive failure, even for a god botherer.

It's subtler than that, obviously. I also hear frequently that boogeyman, old man crow are fabricated myths, not so with Japan, which I never visited.

[The Grand Nudger]

The islamic methodology was to rattle of what sally told james who got it from bob - ad infinitum. That's a game of telephone, not a method.

I guess it's more convenient for muslims to insist that their problems don't exist - but that would be points for the christers..whose hack and slash job doesn't seem to have the power to convince you of the reliability of gospel.

Again, you are not convinced by the thing you offered up as proof.

Crowds of people -do- get the words of speeches wrong....regularly, and that's after whatever the speaker got wrong. A chain of hilarity ensues. A speaker says something batshit, listeners hear an entirely different batshit thing, and then faithfully transmit both sets of misapprehensions to the written word, where a lack of any other information makes that garbled mess into "history" by fiat.

Kind of helps if you exterminate anyone who won't bend the knee...too. This is what I attempted to explain to you. At best, absolute best..you have some version of what some warlord thought about the life, the universe, and everything. So what? Do I seem like the kind of person who would fall to the ground in submission just because some ignorant shitheel has thoughts? If every ignorant shitheel in all of human existence and all of their thoughts about any given subject were to collectively disappear, just...poof...the world will have lost nothing of value.

[Fake Messiah]

Details are actually what matters. As I said, to get a feeling of why the hadith methodology works, one simply has to delve into it. Being able to spot false quotes about your favorite writer is the best analogy I can think of.

And that's why those bad Hadiths should be true because Muhammad claimed obvious lies in Quran like that he rode on a winged horse, met Jinns and had conversations with them - he is established liar and liars and conmen also do other bad stuff. Why is that so hard to understand?

[The Grand Nudger]

I'll give you a little more to consider while the above sinks in (or doesn't), Kloro. The sunni shia split..the one that atlas is so convinced accounts for all of the garbage in islam, was a disagreement over the proper succession of a divinely installed king. Of who should follow Dear Leader when he mercifully expired and could wage war against the infidel no longer.

So, you tell me..what possible motive could warring tribal factions have for selecting whatever oral traditions privileged their sect? The sunnis won that fight. Their magic book wouldn't be standardized until the third caliphate. The shia believed that ali presented his full and final version of magic book..but that it was outright rejected.

I want you to notice, here, that even if big mo never said a word of any of it, even if big mo never existed, we could (and probably would) still have muslims squabbling over it. Just as you can easily concede that the god-man, christ, never existed...and yet various christians sects still wrote about the god-man and what he said or did.

---

Details are actually what matters. As I said, to get a feeling of why the hadith methodology works, one simply has to delve into it. Being able to spot false quotes about your favorite writer is the best analogy I can think of.

And that's why those bad Hadiths should be true because Muhammad claimed obvious lies in Quran like that he rode on a winged horse, met Jinns and had conversations with them - he is established liar and liars and conmen also do other bad stuff. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'd go so far as to suggest that any lying and conning was incidental.  That wasn't the goal, if the historical detail provides any context.  He was a warlord, he wanted what any warlord wants.  Straight up bullshitting your subordinates comes with the territory.  Especially if they're so gullible that they'll believe the kinds stories he's said to have told. Why waste time trying to explain the strategic or tactical necessity of offensive raids against neighboring economic powers if you can tell them that a fairy told everyone to do what you say..or further, that the great man did-too give you and only you the keys to the kingdom he built by inflicting misery on others?

It's so much easier to incrementally reveal whatever the fairy just told you, that just so happens to be the answer to the problem you're facing, or the challenge to your authority. Come to think of it, Kloro's right. Magic books and the gods who author them are pretty damned reliable!

[WinterHold]

Discussing with a terrorist is beyond me:

Klorophil is a terrorism enthusiast, he is the same person as Mysticknight, and moreover he creates sock accounts to bombard this place with posts like this:

What the f...

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60077-p...pid1947915

Klorophyll Wrote:


Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.
And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

The only reason you got away with advocating such a post, is that the mods don't even care as it seems; you are the perfect "antagonist Muslim" in these board; so you get away with such disgusting posts that are prevented in the rules:

https://atheistforums.org/rules.php

1. Threats and threatening language are not allowed. We consider a threat to be a statement of intent to cause harm to a specific member.

   
   
   

Then

Registering multiple accounts (sockpuppets) is not allowed.

The use of hate speech targeting race, gender, sex, and sexual orientation are prohibited. This includes the usage of slurs.

As for Fake Messiah:

Trolling is not allowed. Troll behavior includes, but is not limited to repeatedly:

• Making provocative posts.
  
• Making posts that are unrelated / irrelevant to the thread or conversation subject.
  
• Disrupting normal discussion.
  

Both of you broke so many rules, but survived the banning hammer. I don't have anything to do but quoting the rules.

But especially this "Klorophil/MysticKnight", I don't know how the mods are still keeping you active in here after https://atheistforums.org/thread-60077-p...pid1947915

You're disgusting. A disgusting terrorist asshole.

[Deesse23]

Looks like Atlas has found a new MO. Instead of throwing around "tu quoque" he is trying to silence opposition now by claiming that the according posts are irrelevant to the topic aka. spamming.........which i consider to be.....spamming in and of itself.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can I come to your mosque and teach evolution?

[WinterHold]

Can I come to your mosque and teach evolution?

https://atheistforums.org/rules.php

Trolling is not allowed. Troll behavior includes, but is not limited to repeatedly:

• Making provocative posts.
  
• Making posts that are unrelated / irrelevant to the thread or conversation subject.
  
• Disrupting normal discussion.
  

We are not discussing "the rights of non-Muslims to bring up evolution in mosques". For this you can open a separate topic as a suggestion.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can I come to your mosque and teach evolution?

https://atheistforums.org/rules.php

Trolling is not allowed. Troll behavior includes, but is not limited to repeatedly:

• Making provocative posts.
  
• Making posts that are unrelated / irrelevant to the thread or conversation subject.
  
• Disrupting normal discussion.
  

We are not discussing "the rights of non-Muslims to bring up evolution in mosques". For this you can open a separate topic as a suggestion.

Fuck you, you do nothing but troll. Don't try to hide behind rules you don't follow.