Big Bang in Beruit

[Brian37]

It certainly is too early to tell the cause sure. But considering it was an industrial building, it also could be simple bad management and neglect.

It might not even be that. Even with good management and proper maintenance, accidents still happen.

Boru

True, but Lebanon hasn't had a good economy for a long time. And China a few years ago had a huge industrial explosion too. 

Good economy or not, things like this piss me off when America's GOP keep seeking deregulation only to have things like coal ash and GENEX dumped in our rivers.

Accidents do happen even under good conditions. But no matter what, when they do, it is from not following protocol, or not having proper redundancy in back up safety measures. 

Something certainly went wrong, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

[Silver]

Trust the pyro expert.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It might not even be that. Even with good management and proper maintenance, accidents still happen.

Boru

True, but Lebanon hasn't had a good economy for a long time. And China a few years ago had a huge industrial explosion too. 

Good economy or not, things like this piss me off when America's GOP keep seeking deregulation only to have things like coal ash and GENEX dumped in our rivers.

Accidents do happen even under good conditions. But no matter what, when they do, it is from not following protocol, or not having proper redundancy in back up safety measures. 

Something certainly went wrong, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

No, that’s not what the word ‘accident’ means. It’s simply not possible to foresee every imaginable circumstance and guard against it.

Boru

[polymath257]

It sounds like there was a fireworks factory beside the location where the NH4NO3 was being stored.

The videos showed a nice Wilson cloud (condensation of water vapor) along with the shock wave. That was a seriously bad explosion.

In the video of the explosion, there are clearly smaller 'pops' going on around the initial smoke cloud. I would assume that one of those could light the ammonium nitrate.

[Deesse23]

True, ammonium nitrate is highly volatile. I got what you meant now. It was part of both events.

Oh shut up.


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Amfo is stable as hell....  That is a large reason for it's common use. You can set fire to it. You can pound on it with a hammer all day - and nothing will happen.

You can blow up firecrackers in it and it will not detonate. It takes a priming charge - like dynamite - to detonate.



I know. I have experience with it. 


....

That said - I saw 60 lbs of it blow a hole in sandy soil - 9 feet deep and 20 feet wide.


I suppose there is a pressure factor when you get thousands of tons with it - but I don't think a simple fire would detonate it. There was probably some other agent -  that detonated first....

An important factor when you wanna blow stuff up is the detonation velocity of the agent used. It shows how fast the chemical reaction can propagate , and this in turn influences the detonation pressure that can build up.

Agents with low detonation speed need to be put in "boxes" to give time to puild up pressure or all you have is a conflagration, kindaa fizzz. How is detonation velocity linked to detonation pressure? Detonation pressure is proportional to the SQUARE of detonation speed (roughly).

Where is Ammonium nitrate on the scale?

Gunpowder: 600 m/s
TNT: ca. 7000
Ammoniumnitrate: 2500

Its much closer to TNT than to gunpowder (which actually is a quite low rated explosive). You defnitely need no strong boxes to create a pressure wave. How does it compare to TNT? Well Detonation speed is 1/3 of TNT and so detonation pressure is 1/10 of TNT. Yet in this case detonation pressure was (still!) 1/10 of that of 3000 tons of TNT!!!!!! three.tousand.tons.of.TNT

[arewethereyet]

It might not even be that. Even with good management and proper maintenance, accidents still happen.

Boru

True, but Lebanon hasn't had a good economy for a long time. And China a few years ago had a huge industrial explosion too. 

Good economy or not, things like this piss me off when America's GOP keep seeking deregulation only to have things like coal ash and GENEX dumped in our rivers.

Accidents do happen even under good conditions. But no matter what, when they do, it is from not following protocol, or not having proper redundancy in back up safety measures. 

Something certainly went wrong, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

Amazing depth in that analysis.

Of course if it was intentional then something went right for the people who did it.

[Brian37]

True, but Lebanon hasn't had a good economy for a long time. And China a few years ago had a huge industrial explosion too. 

Good economy or not, things like this piss me off when America's GOP keep seeking deregulation only to have things like coal ash and GENEX dumped in our rivers.

Accidents do happen even under good conditions. But no matter what, when they do, it is from not following protocol, or not having proper redundancy in back up safety measures. 

Something certainly went wrong, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

No, that’s not what the word ‘accident’ means. It’s simply not possible to foresee every imaginable circumstance and guard against it.

Boru

Not disputing this. You are correct.

But regardless, even if a company, of any product is doing it's best, and they still have a catastrophe, they investigate it and learn from it. Airline disasters work the same way. But more often than not, many airline disasters are from pilot error, rushing, miscommunication. lack of maintenance, or flawed plane design. Car companies have recalls all the time.

But in this case, knowing Lebanon isn't as regulated as other countries, and doesn't have a first world economy, it is highly likely corners were cut.

The Takata airbag flaw that lead to several deaths was a direct result of design flaw and management covering up that flaw. And Japan isn't  a poor country like Lebanon.

---

True, but Lebanon hasn't had a good economy for a long time. And China a few years ago had a huge industrial explosion too. 

Good economy or not, things like this piss me off when America's GOP keep seeking deregulation only to have things like coal ash and GENEX dumped in our rivers.

Accidents do happen even under good conditions. But no matter what, when they do, it is from not following protocol, or not having proper redundancy in back up safety measures. 

Something certainly went wrong, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

Amazing depth in that analysis.

Of course if it was intentional then something went right for the people who did it.

Where did I say it was intentional?

I am saying that the likelihood is that protocol wasn't followed, or the company simply didn't have proper redundancy in place. 

.

[onlinebiker]

Oh shut up.


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Amfo is stable as hell....  That is a large reason for it's common use. You can set fire to it. You can pound on it with a hammer all day - and nothing will happen.

You can blow up firecrackers in it and it will not detonate. It takes a priming charge - like dynamite - to detonate.



I know. I have experience with it. 


....

That said - I saw 60 lbs of it blow a hole in sandy soil - 9 feet deep and 20 feet wide.


I suppose there is a pressure factor when you get thousands of tons with it - but I don't think a simple fire would detonate it. There was probably some other agent -  that detonated first....

An important factor when you wanna blow stuff up is the detonation velocity of the agent used. It shows how fast the chemical reaction can propagate , and this in turn influences the detonation pressure that can build up.

Agents with low detonation speed need to be put in "boxes" to give time to puild up pressure or all you have is a conflagration, kindaa fizzz. How is detonation velocity linked to detonation pressure? Detonation pressure is proportional to the SQUARE of detonation speed (roughly).

Where is Ammonium nitrate on the scale?

Gunpowder: 600 m/s
TNT: ca. 7000
Ammoniumnitrate: 2500

Its much closer to TNT than to gunpowder (which actually is a quite low rated explosive). You defnitely need no strong boxes to create a pressure wave. How does it compare to TNT? Well Detonation speed is 1/3 of TNT and so detonation pressure is 1/10 of TNT. Yet in this case detonation pressure was (still!) 1/10 of that of 3000 tons of TNT!!!!!! three.tousand.tons.of.TNT

Yup...  It does have it's useful qualities... It simply is much safer than many substances.... There is a far greater chance of accidental ignition of gasoline than amfo.

But yeah - bigger boom than gas...

[chimp3]

BBC is reporting that city officials are on house arrest. Apparently the storage of the Ammonia Nitrate has been a bureaucratic fuck up for years. There was orders years ago to have it removed and stored safely. Nothing was done. I'm not conspiracy minded but it would not have been hard to recognize the bomb potential there. I have friends from Lebanon. That country deserves pity. I hope it is only an accident and not more terrorism.

---

Tim McVeigh used ammonium nitrate for his truck bomb.

Yup! Mixed with diesel in 50 gallon drums. That guy new how to build a bomb.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Tim McVeigh used ammonium nitrate for his truck bomb.

Yup! Mixed with diesel in 50 gallon drums. That guy new how to build a bomb.

He had a manual.