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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 5:10 pm
Quote:Asking "if everything has a creator, then what created God?" is a lot like asking "if people evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?" The question shows that you don't understand the argument.
No the later is stupid the former is right on the button
Quote:Granted, the straw man version is a lot more convenient.
It's strawman if you don't like the argument
"Change was inevitable"
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 5:14 pm
Problem goes away if one claims the god is eternal.
Of course, that just raises fresh problems.
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 4:10 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Asking "if everything has a creator, then what created God?" is a lot like asking "if people evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?" The question shows that you don't understand the argument.
Granted, the straw man version is a lot more convenient.
1) Theists don't adequately make the case for God having existed forever (other than definitionally and via a rather shaky appeal to infinite regress) and 2) This is nowhere near establishing a theistic god.
Boru
You understand it better than Eleven, but there's a lot you don't.
No one claims that a first cause argument gets you to the God of the Bible.
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 5:36 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm)Belacqua Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: 1) Theists don't adequately make the case for God having existed forever (other than definitionally and via a rather shaky appeal to infinite regress) and 2) This is nowhere near establishing a theistic god.
Boru
You understand it better than Eleven, but there's a lot you don't.
No one claims that a first cause argument gets you to the God of the Bible.
I didn’t say it gets you to the god of the Bible, I said that it doesn’t establish a theistic god.
And William Lane Craig (among others) makes the claim that the argument DOES get you to the god of the Bible. Perhaps you should take it up with him.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 6:00 pm
Quote:No one claims that a first cause argument gets you to the God of the Bible.
And yet just about every apologist brings up the bible in the same lecture/debate were the kalam is discussed
Yup total coincidence 
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 6:06 pm by brewer.)
(August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 4:10 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Asking "if everything has a creator, then what created God?" is a lot like asking "if people evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?" The question shows that you don't understand the argument.
Granted, the straw man version is a lot more convenient.
I agree it's a strawman, but it's also a case of special pleading
Atheists tend to frame the argument as, 'If everything that exists had a cause, then God must have a cause', which theists haven't argued since Aristotle made his case for an uncaused cause.
The proper argument is, 'Everything that began to exist must have a cause. God is eternal and so does not require a cause, since God has always existed.' This form of the argument is rife with its own problems, since 1) Theists don't adequately make the case for God having existed forever (other than definitionally and via a rather shaky appeal to infinite regress) and 2) This is nowhere near establishing a theistic god.
Boru
My conclusion, this philosophical theistic argument fails.
Tell us all again what I don't understand Bel. Or is it just that I don't understand it the way that you need me to understand it to prop you up.
(August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm)Belacqua Wrote: You understand it better than Eleven, but there's a lot you don't.
Your hubris is boundless.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm)brewer Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 5:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I agree it's a strawman, but it's also a case of special pleading
Atheists tend to frame the argument as, 'If everything that exists had a cause, then God must have a cause', which theists haven't argued since Aristotle made his case for an uncaused cause.
The proper argument is, 'Everything that began to exist must have a cause. God is eternal and so does not require a cause, since God has always existed.' This form of the argument is rife with its own problems, since 1) Theists don't adequately make the case for God having existed forever (other than definitionally and via a rather shaky appeal to infinite regress) and 2) This is nowhere near establishing a theistic god.
Boru
My conclusion, this philosophical theistic argument fails.
Tell us all again what I don't understand Bel. Or is it just that I don't understand it the way that you need me to understand it to prop you up.
(August 10, 2020 at 5:22 pm)Belacqua Wrote: You understand it better than Eleven, but there's a lot you don't.
Your hubris is boundless.
Kinda funny how we’re excoriated by Bel for thinking we know what Christians believe, but it’s perfectly OK for Bel to tell us how much we understand.
Funny, funny, funny.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 6:26 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm)brewer Wrote: My conclusion, this philosophical theistic argument fails.
Tell us all again what I don't understand Bel. Or is it just that I don't understand it the way that you need me to understand it to prop you up.
Your hubris is boundless.
Kinda funny how we’re excoriated by Bel for thinking we know what Christians believe, but it’s perfectly OK for Bel to tell us how much we understand.
Funny, funny, funny.
Boru
The "there's a lot you don't understand" comment means there's a lot you don't understand or you'd come to the same conclusion as Bel.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 7:19 pm
Hubris? Meh. Bel's a feckless troll, not a person for whom hubris is an issue.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Creationism
August 10, 2020 at 8:42 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 6:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 6:04 pm)brewer Wrote: My conclusion, this philosophical theistic argument fails.
Tell us all again what I don't understand Bel. Or is it just that I don't understand it the way that you need me to understand it to prop you up.
Your hubris is boundless.
Kinda funny how we’re excoriated by Bel for thinking we know what Christians believe, but it’s perfectly OK for Bel to tell us how much we understand.
Funny, funny, funny.
Boru He's arrogance that pretends it humble
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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