Question about "faith"

[Mister Agenda]

Actually, Nomad gave a good definition of faith.
To understand it better look at it this way: Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know.

For instance, if a religious person says “I have faith in God.”
What he is actually saying is: “I pretend to know things I don’t know about God.”

Or when a theist says: “Life has no meaning without faith.”
He is saying: “Life has no meaning if I stop pretending to know things I don’t know.”

Or when a religious person says: “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist.”
He is saying: “I don’t pretend to know things I don’t know enough to be an atheist.”

The Online Etymology Dictionary defines faith as: "faithfulness to a trust or promise; loyalty to a person; honesty, truthfulness"

When a religious person says, I have faith in God, they are saying they trust God in some way; they trust God will save them, they trust God will forgive them, they trust God will help them. They are not pretending to know or not know anything.

Faith is assenting to any proposition, based upon the credit of the proposer. How reasonable faith is depends on how trustworthy the proposer is.

Alas, the dictionary makes a distinction that you are NOT making:

faith
/fāTH/

noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
h
Similar:

h
Opposite:
mistrust


2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

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The issue I think you're having is attempting to view a religious topic from an atheist perspective. No Christian ever says "I have faith that Jesus walked on water" unless they are talking to an atheist. Christians by definition already believe God exists and that Jesus walked on water. Rather, faith within a Christian perspective only takes place after you are sure of God's existence. It doesn't make sense before that, and faith is not the means by which to arrive at that. Faith is not for believing God exists, but for trusting God after you believe he exists.

That seems to be an idiosyncratic definition, I've never heard a Christian define it like that before, and I was a devout one. The second sense of the word 'faith' is clearly in play here.

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Christians don't conflate faith with knowledge. That is largely an atheist thing, as can be observed in this thread alone. When you attend church, and hear the conversations Christians have amongst each other, faith is used to signify trust.

Quotes such as "Faith is belief without evidence and reason" come from atheists.

Whereas quotes such as "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods" come from Christians.

I still attend church, or at least I did before the plague, and I'm pretty sure you're over-generalizing from your own church. What is it, 40% of Americans are Christian fundamentalists? What you're saying certainly doesn't reflect their views. You'd think awareness of thousands of Christian sects would make you a little more hesitant about making general claims about what Christians believe; the core beliefs all Christians hold are pretty small in number.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Alas, the dictionary makes a distinction that you are NOT making:

The first definition represents the Christian usage of the word. Here's another example from the 1800s when my church was being formed:

"Faith is trusting God, believing that He loves us, and knows best what is for our good" -E.G. White.

The second definition does not represent the biblical usage of the word. It's just the way people have come to describe religious beliefs more broadly, as "faiths," etc.

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There is a danger of overgeneralizing from my end. However, my basis thus far (with the exception of the E.G. White quote above) has been Scripture, C.S. Lewis, Dave Willis (whatever denomination he might be), and John Locke, Greek Concordance, and an Etymology dictionary. All of which define faith as trust, warranty, etc. These are resources that don't belong to my church, and in some cases from Christians that have themselves criticized my church (C.S. Lewis).

[Mister Agenda]

If we thunk really hard, we'd find that the dictonary's description of faith as trust was an effect of secular use...which doesn't express the fullness of a religious faith.

To the contrary, faith as belief without evidence is a byproduct of secular, more modern uses of the word, no doubt influenced by the rise of modern atheism.

Faith is a rather old religious word, crossing several languages, and dating back to periods when everybody thought God existed. That is why I quoted my definition from it's etymology. The Greek word used for faith in the NT, the only definition that matters, also leans towards trust. You can see remnants of that definition in English as well. Note that a faith-ful person is a loyal and trustworthy person; not a person that believes things blindly. Biblehub's Greek concordance describes faith in terms of a trust or warranty.

Why would faith go from being a bad thing (blind belief) within Christianity and become a good thing (trust) in secular parlance lol. It's clearly the opposite. Faith as trust is the religious use of the word. And as society became more secular it naturally took on the negative connotation of blind belief.

Faith comes from the Old French 'feid' which comes from the Latin 'fides' meant simply 'trust' or 'fidelity' in the 1200s when it became part of English, the separate religious sense of the word was necessary as the sense of trust involved was distinct from trust in mundane things. Words can have multiple senses, it's due to usage, and the idea that atheists have the power to change the dictionary definition is not just ludicrous but arguably paranoid. It's a complicated word with multiple senses, and has been for a very long time.

I found this definition in an 1828 dictionary:

FAITH, noun [Latin fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]
1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.
3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.
4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.
Being justified by faith Romans 5:1.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:1.
For we walk by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7.
With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Romans 10:6.
The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.
FAITH is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.
FAITH is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them.
5. The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.
They heard only, that he who persecuted us in times past, now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Galatians 1:23.
6. The promises of God, or his truth and faithfulness.
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom 3.
7. An open profession of gospel truth.
Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom 1.
8. A persuasion or belief of the lawfulness of things indifferent.
Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Rom 14.
9. Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises.
Her failing, while her faith to me remains, I would conceal.
Children in whom is no faith Deuteronomy 32:20.
10. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity. He violated his plighted faith
For you alone I broke my faith with injured Palamon.
11. Sincerity; honesty; veracity; faithfulness. We ought in good faith to fulfill all our engagements.
12. Credibility or truth. Unusual.]
The faith of the foregoing narrative.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Thank you for that resource.

Almost all the examples given in that 1828 dictionary can be loosely summarised as trust. They more precisely reflect the John Locke quote I already gave: faith is assenting to a proposition upon the credit of the proposer.

That's why faith is not a feeling or blind belief. Faith is trust. I trust my doctor because of his credentials. Moses trusted God to part the Red Sea because he saw the plagues fall. Faith is trust, and trust rests solely on the merit or promise of another person.

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If you think atheists can't alter the dictionary then you misunderstand how dictionaries work. They are descriptive not prescriptive. All atheists have to do is repeat and perpetuate that faith is blind belief amongst themselves (as they do} and sooner or later culture and the dictionary will begin to reflect that (as it has). Note that this old dictionary never says anything remotely close to the Dawkins definition of faith:

"Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.'

[Sal]

Barring radical skepticism (simulation, brain-in-a-vat hypothesis, consistent & ever-present hallucinations, brain damage or consistent mental faculty error, any unnoticed change in cognition, psychosis ... you get the picture), my primary source are my senses in accumulating information. Given the operant assumption that my senses, as far their "build" goes, accurately gives me sense information of an external reality. However, I think most people got this assumption backwards though. It's after sensory information that I'm able to come to this assumption; a priori is built upon a postiori basis. IOW, sensory experience guides my mind.

My cognitive ability is inseparably tied with my experience from my senses. Also, I assume that whatever reality is, I think that my sensory organs tied to my mind and the seat for the mind itself, my brain, are made of the same material that objective reality is made of.

But even with this fundamental assumption about an objective reality, I could be wrong. I do not know what test I could device, even if it were be possible, that could put this into question. Only thing I know is that my sensory experiences are consistent to the operation of my senses, as far as my mind is able to decode them.

My mind is not perfect, not by any stretch, nor even my senses. For example, I know that, from experience and comparing sensory information, that my senses are limited, my eyes do not see clearly, which is adjusted with glasses; I'm nearsighted. Likewise, my mind has "software" bugs - even if I accept that my eyes accurately show me of visual information - I'm still easily "deceived" by optical illusions.

I only know these things of imperfections of mind and sensory input, because of internal comparisons of experiences; i.e. illusions break as well as sense organs are faulty and provisional.

It'd be funny to see in the infrared spectrum and have the brain structure to interpret heat vision.

[The Grand Nudger]

An atheist conspiracy to alter dictionaries, or faith and trust aren't actually the same thing. 50/50.

You people are fucking ridiculous, you'd cut off your nose to spite your face. Fine, your christian faith and whether or not a hot dog is edible are the same kind of thing. Your call, I guess.

[John 6IX Breezy]

An atheist conspiracy to alter dictionaries, or faith and trust aren't actually the same thing. 50/50.

It's not a conspiracy it's the nature of language. It's basic English lol.

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I think this whole debate gets resolved if someone can show me one legitimate Christian resource that says faith is an emotion or blind belief. Quote the Pope or something, no more anecdotes.

[The Grand Nudger]

Another thing that you should google yourself, because, as before, with physiological expressions of faith, you're going to find more than anyone could possibly contain in a post or a thread or a single book.

It's such a ubiquitous aspect of faith, any faith you cretin, in any of the worlds religions, that I'm sitting here feeling like you could be getting more out of christianity if the notion is completely alien to you. You haven't been born again, as my wife has been born again, for example. It isn't on account of any fact about whether monkeys can turn into people, that she has faith. It isn't because god found her car keys or her wallet. It isn't because anyone convinced her to believe by any argument, not even herself. It isn't because god came down from on high and told her so, she doesn't have tea with the fucker. The contents of magic book are not a requirement. There is nothing about my wife's faith that could possibly be true or false, and she can't help but or fail to possess it. She is not now as she was before.

It's an altered state. A very strong feeling. A brute fact of her internal experience that cannot be argued with or against or for, it simply is. Perhaps you are not that far along on your christian walk. You're still at the performative phase, where rattling off christianese and reasons™ for belief matter. Faking it until you make it, Mr. Legitimate Christian™?

It's perfectly fine if you are, it works, that's why we indoctrinate our children. Ritual and repetition are powerful agents of change. We know that this process can create the desired effect. Faith, and faith as more than whether your hot dog is done or not.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Faith is not a religious or spiritual experience the way awe or love might be. Faith is the assent of the mind to a proposition, upon the credit of the proposer, aka, trust in God.

[The Grand Nudger]

All I hear is a man telling me how tiny his faith is, John. Others are not so cruelly afflicted as you. Your faith may be adequaely described by a transactional relationship based on perceived credit - some people get more out of it, and would wonder why you have so little faith. Probably blame your church, or your parents, or even more broadly contemporary materialistic society - always has you chasing a deliverable. Extracting tangible goods from the words of others. That sort of thing.