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Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
#1
Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
The "invisible hand" in economics is a familiar concept to most around here no doubt. It is the force whereby free market capitalism "works" - essential to its functioning is that people and firms act in their own selfish best interest. 

Is it really any wonder there's so much unrest/depression/substance abuse/loneliness etc etc etc when we are centrally presumed to be, and encouraged to be, fundamentally selfish in our working lives and all our interactions with goods and services (also known as the extant economic paradigm)? Doubtless for most these interactions and work make up the majority of a life - and the economics shrieks and revolves around the concept that we are and need be, that most distasteful and universally maligned (and rightly so) of human dispositions, selfish above all else. 

WOW how I detest the Tory/GOP mindset and economic policy...now more than ever....death to majority free market capitalism says I :Hack Spit:

Thoughts?  Popcorn
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#2
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
I think we should provide for needs through governmental decree Fire, Police, Medical, Basic Nutritional Need, Universal Basic Income, Water, Sewer, Electricity, and Internet (I probably missed something).

I think everything else should be handled with regulated markets. What I mean is wants should be handled by what you want within a market that provides based on supply and demand BUT externalities need to be managed and the invisible hand of the market does a piss poor job of making companies green and clean.

I also think that the large oligopolies need to be broken up; no you don't get to design ICs, make ICs, package them, AND create the platforms they will be used in the market (I'm looking at you Intel). That is a definition of price fixing where the invisible hand of the market cannot do what it does best. I would also bust up Google, Microsoft, fuck 'em all actually. Split them up and spread out the wealth. Increase competition.
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#3
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
Sounds pretty good Rhizo. What I was trying to get at with the OP however is more the idea/realisation that we all (at least in Tory UK and GOP US) are wading through...er...remember memberies from south park? Or perhaps it's like a devil sitting on our shoulder whispering "be selfish, invisible hand, you are selfish, be selfish" throughout your whole life really, and the knock on negative effects, never mind all the polution etc, for societal friendliness, cohesion, and mental (as well as physical actually, come to think of it) health.
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#4
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
(October 13, 2020 at 1:30 pm)Lawz Wrote: The "invisible hand" in economics is a familiar concept to most around here no doubt. It is the force whereby free market capitalism "works" - essential to its functioning is that people and firms act in their own selfish best interest. 

Is it really any wonder there's so much unrest/depression/substance abuse/loneliness etc etc etc when we are centrally presumed to be, and encouraged to be, fundamentally selfish in our working lives and all our interactions with goods and services (also known as the extant economic paradigm)? Doubtless for most these interactions and work make up the majority of a life - and the economics shrieks and revolves around the concept that we are and need be, that most distasteful and universally maligned (and rightly so) of human dispositions, selfish above all else. 

WOW how I detest the Tory/GOP mindset and economic policy...now more than ever....death to majority free market capitalism says I :Hack Spit:

Thoughts?  Popcorn

The question is not “is it wise to base society around selfishness”.   The question is “is it feasible to based any durable society around anything other than selfishness”.   The answer in my opinion is fundamentally no.   

However, societies can be ordered in different ways such that the selfishness of different parts of society is given Greater or less degrees of structurally controlled differences in the probability of fulfillment.    I think the Anglo-american model of capitalism is ordering the society increasingly towards maximizing the probability of fulfillment of the selfishness of a few, at the expense of fulfillment of the selfishness of the many, while offering ideological bullshit and other shabby flimflam to the many to prevent them from rising up to lynch the few.
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#5
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
I'm not able to address your post at the mo Anomalocaris, but just need to say that I don't REALLY blame anybody here for the mealy mouthed "zero reps for OP" this thread has thus far received, in (apparent) spite of it's flagrant brilliance (I'm staggered at least, believe you me), but rather attribute your inability to give kudos to y'all being too competitive (selfish) to give props where it's due, due to Adam Smith. Ta Da! I has made pretty.
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#6
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
I reject the premise. ‘Selfishness’ and ‘self-interest’ are not the same thing.

That said, pure capitalism suffers from the same inherent flaw as pure Marxism: it ascribes to both producers and consumers a level of altruism that neither possess.

Boru
_______

Edit: Gave Lawz a kudos because I’m unable to change his nappy.
Ignorance is never valid grounds for the rejection of established facts.
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#7
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
(October 13, 2020 at 2:46 pm)Lawz Wrote: I'm not able to address your post at the mo Anomalocaris, but just need to say that I don't REALLY blame anybody here for the mealy mouthed "zero reps for OP" this thread has thus far received, in (apparent) spite of it's flagrant brilliance (I'm staggered at least, believe you me), but rather attribute your inability to give kudos to y'all being too competitive (selfish) to give props where it's due, due to Adam Smith. Ta Da! I has made pretty.

You don't really think your post was spectacular or novel do you? It is such an obvious thing you point out. The real meat is in engineering a solution.
  • People are selfish. We know this
  • We also know that people aren't motivated by money
  • People invest massive amounts of time into incredibly hard things with no thought of profit
  • The current system yokes most of the people in the system with a treadmill-like existence where they are trapped in their job because that is the only thing that will meet their needs
  • ????
  • Profit
Ok, I haven't worked it all out but given enough time I could write a book on What Need to be done According to Rhizomorph13. Anyway, got to get back to work testing these boards...
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#8
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
7 REP...just 7...Confusedniff: Confusedniff: :waaaaaaaaagh bawl weep:

In all seriousness Boru, I think this forum has zero crying/bawling/weeping avatars, after investigation this evening. Do the Irish and Americans not cry, even in sarcasm?

EDIT: you edited your post.
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#9
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
My posts are better than yours because I got more rep ... I just ignore those with more rep than me.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#10
RE: Is basing society around selfishness wise (Adam Smith etc)
(October 13, 2020 at 3:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Edit: Gave Lawz a kudos because I’m unable to change his nappy.

I haven't worn a nappy for c. 37 years, but I appreciate the gesture (ie. you care). This stunner of a thread is, I think, a case of my somehow exiting the forest and seeing it in spite of the trees.
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