"Why is it reasonable to believe in prisons, but not in the hell?"

[HappySkeptic]

Well, I do not know how trustworthy those reports about how bad the US is and how bad China is are. Is it reasonable to believe the Trump administration is having concentration camps where they put Hispanics? I think it is not, because the US government is denying that, and governments are, with all their flaws, the best source of information we have. Or whether the Tiananmen Square Massacre happened? Well, I think Tiananmen Square Massacre did not happen either. Chinese government is denying it, and that is probably the best source of information we have. I mean, what incentive do they have to lie when they are so powerful? As well, what happened to the bodies of those who supposedly died on the Tiananmen Square? Not to mention the ironic meanings in names. The name "Tiananmen" means "gate to heaven"... where the victims of the massacre were sent? Hmm...

WTF?  I don't know how to parse this.  Are you trying to set up a bad argument in order to show up how stupid it is, or is this your own argument?

No-one has to just "trust" anyone.  Cross-reference reports, particularly from the time events are happening.  Are the reports contradictory?  Is there video or photographic evidence?  Are there eye-witness reports by sources that appear credible?  What are the motivations of those giving the reports?  How likely is a conspiracy given that conspiracies fail when too many are in on it?  Can a skeptical person dig up evidence on their own?

There are lots of ways that we determine credibility, and trusting a "few" sources is only one way.  We tend to assume credibility for reports that are compatible with our world view.  That often serves us well, but leaves us vulnerable to liars, unless we are willing to check evidence ourselves.

As for Tienanmen Square, we don't have to rely on governments to tell us anything.  I was alive at the time.  A government is never your "best source of information", though in democracies with a freedom of the press, lies are often uncovered.  When the press is not free (or an alternative propaganda press serves half the country), leaders learn that lying has great advantages.

[FlatAssembler]

A government is never your "best source of information"

As far as I understand it, one of the basic principles of social sciences is to never question the statistics given by the governments.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, I do not know how trustworthy those reports about how bad the US is and how bad China is are. Is it reasonable to believe the Trump administration is having concentration camps where they put Hispanics?

Yes.  Embarrassing clusterfuck that's cost us money and, other minor thing..violated human rights in some truly disgusting ways.

 I think it is not, because the US government is denying that, and governments are, with all their flaws, the best source of information we have.

No...it isn't?  The government has never denied that they're running concentration camps and they have long since admitted that there was an intentional child separation policy.  If you couldn't believe your lying eyes but did believe our lying government, then you'd still reasonably believe that the concentration camps where we housed (and still house) the victims of our border policies...in fact...exist.  

Or whether the Tiananmen Square Massacre happened? Well, I think Tiananmen Square Massacre did not happen either. Chinese government is denying it, and that is probably the best source of information we have.

 0/2.  The chinese government not only admits it, they officially declare that the crackdown was right.

I mean, what incentive do they have to lie when they are so powerful? As well, what happened to the bodies of those who supposedly died on the Tiananmen Square?

The same reasons for power to lie, same things that happen to any body that dies... anywhere else. Really plumbing the mysteries of the universe at this point.

Not to mention the ironic meanings in names. The name "Tiananmen" means "gate to heaven"... where the victims of the massacre were sent? Hmm...

This silly shit again? Don't get me wrong, the way that places have gotten their names is my kind of trivia - it;s just not a very good angle for denying any given human rights abuse in the last century or so. Perhaps you'd be better off starting from the ground up, with bad things that you do think happened, and..then, from those things - seeing if some of the other things are qualitatively or quantitatively identical. If being able to go to a building and touch it qualifies a belief in that building - then, it should be simple to argue for and arrange a compelling demonstration of the existence of a prison to your prison-skeptic friend. Even if the prison sits on a hill named Happyfuntime Notaprisonville.

[R00tKiT]

However, I think a valid counter-argument to that is "But there have been some near-death-experiencer claiming to have been to hell.".

This count argument is invalid. A near death experiencer is an alive person, what he sees/witnesses when some brain function is altered or about to shut down comes from his memories, therefore these experiences have no truth value. After all, one is either dead or not dead.

Another response I can think of to the question from the title is "How could hell ever be a just punishment? Hell is an infinite punishment, and all the crimes we can do on this world are finite.".

the length of punishment is independent of the length of a crime. If someone is given a life sentence for fatally shooting someone, it's clear that there is no quantitative relationship between how long the gunshot took (less than a second?) and the length of a life sentence.

Another response I can think of to the question from the title is claiming that hell contradicts science, since one needs nervous system to feel pain, but that is all destroyed once one dies.

An all powerful deity can certainly find alternatives to make the ressurected person feel pain again, even in the absence of a nervous system.

[FlatAssembler]

violated human rights in some truly disgusting ways.

Well, even if those things are true, they are still nothing compared to what the animals have to go through in factory farms, right?

same things that happen to any body that dies... anywhere else.

When you are saying there was a massacre somewhere, you are implying there is a mass grave hidden somewhere near, right? So, how come that mass grave hasn't been found in more than 30 years?

A near death experiencer is an alive person, what he sees/witnesses when some brain function is altered or about to shut down comes from his memories, therefore these experiences have no truth value.

You know, I think there are some good arguments against belief that NDEs are true, but this really is not one of them. Why would a soul only be able to leave the body once it is completely dead? Why would, if there is an afterlife, out-of-body experiences be impossible?

the length of punishment is independent of the length of a crime.

I am not talking about the length of punishment, I am talking about the amount of suffering that punishment inflicts.

An all powerful deity can certainly find alternatives to make the ressurected person feel pain again, even in the absence of a nervous system.

You know, once you assume nervous system is not necessary to feel pain, there is a big problem there... Do you also think plants feel pain? If so, why? If not, why not?

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, even if those things are true, they are still nothing compared to what the animals have to go through in factory farms, right?

Depends, sometimes it's been the same thing.  Insomuch as we think it's bad to mistreat a chicken some specific way it would be as bad or worse to do the same to a person.  The better analogy to (other) animals would be pests, imo, though.  When we begin to believe and start to treat our neighbors like rats to be exterminated, we've lost the pulse.  

When you are saying there was a massacre somewhere, you are implying there is a mass grave hidden somewhere near, right? So, how come that mass grave hasn't been found in more than 30 years?

We don't always bury bodies, but it seems like an academic question about corpse disposal what with all the mass graves in the region.  Don't you think? Or is this another case of you believing that it would be bad if there were mass graves, therefore there aren't any...? I have personally fucking stepped in them. Pleasant experience. The mass grave that has you so enamored was found very nearly thirty years ago, and it's only one of many.

Honestly, fuck off with this shit. Fuck off all the way to the moon, and when you get there, keep going.

[FlatAssembler]

What is wrong with posting some things in Latin? I think texts (and videos, such as the 

Moderator Notice
link removed

 I recently made) in Latin about atheism are a useful tool against pseudo-intellectuals who won't listen otherwise.

What's wrong with it is that we have a rule against it.
What makes you think a post in a language people don't understand is going to have more impact than a post in a language they DO understand?
Boru

By the way, why it is that you didn't have a problem with me linking to Vukovar Revisionism propaganda?

[The Grand Nudger]

There's no forum rule against being a horrible fucking person that advocates for the horrible fucking ideology of some horrible fucking murderers. Honestly, only know Boru from the boards...but I suspect that he'd personally have so much of a problem with that shit, and with you, that he would personally have a problem with the better angels of his own damned nature.

-but that's not how being a mod or admin on these boards works... and we all agree when we become officers of these boards to respect a schema which we may not personally agree with, but which may be (and in fact simply is from an institutional standpoint) the underlying ideology of commitment to the expression of free exercise. You're very much allowed, here, to link to and say untrue and horrible shit.

Go nuts!

The service that we provide here, if we provide any service, is that for every nut like yourself who says the sorts of things a nut like you would say...there are the rest of us, who reject and treat that nutty shit like nutty shit, and who are equally empowered to call your nutty shit nutty shit.

Questions?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

What's wrong with it is that we have a rule against it.
What makes you think a post in a language people don't understand is going to have more impact than a post in a language they DO understand?
Boru

By the way, why it is that you didn't have a problem with me linking to Vukovar Revisionism propaganda?

Why should I have had? Was your link in a non-English language or something?

I suspect you suffer from a common misconception - that we ban or edit people for their views and opinions. This is not the case.

Boru

[FlatAssembler]

By the way, why it is that you didn't have a problem with me linking to Vukovar Revisionism propaganda?

Why should I have had? Was your link in a non-English language or something?

I suspect you suffer from a common misconception - that we ban or edit people for their views and opinions. This is not the case.

Boru

Yes, that link was in... Serbo-Croatian, the usual language of Vukovar Revisionism.