[Serious] The Purpose of Pain

[Belacqua]

negative emotions

Maybe people could operate without physical pain -- I'm not sure.

But it seems to me that negative emotions are unavoidable, given what it is to be a human being.

I think that one of the key things that makes us human is our ability to imagine things different than they are. Probably some "higher" animals share this ability, but I don't think that bugs or mice can conceptualize something like "gee, I wish my environment were more widely extended." They perceive what it is, but can't imagine it otherwise. 

Our capacity to invent and innovate requires this ability. 

But our negative emotions are generally rooted in this as well. We feel bad because we can imagine how life could be better, or imagine that some good thing might not have ended, or just see more desirable alternatives. 

So I guess you could complain that God made us with such imaginative ability, but desiring NOT to have such an ability would mean you desired not to be human.

[The Grand Nudger]

We don't stop being human just because we aren't suffering any more than we stop being human when we drink pepto.

Soul forge ideology is not defensible. I guess we could complain that human beings figured this out a long time ago, but that's just a failure on our part to be human. No god has ever punished or hurt any human being, with a soul forge or any other thing. That would be humans, with mealy mouthed excuses the whole way through. There's very little else in all of human experience that demonstrates mans utter contempt for his fellow man than the miserable superstitions that we'll create and defend.

Since this is a serious thread, pain, is an indicator of real or potential damage or danger to the body. There's no higher purpose to it, no man behind the curtains, no plan for it whatsoever. Pain is not something that any moral agent has inflicted on humanity for us to be frustrated with or thankful for that agent. We find ourselves feeling pain due to the circumstances of a biological reality which has and will continue to change, and some of us already have equally hereditary conditions which reduce our ability to experience it. It is not.... in any way.... inextricable or necessary to our human nature that we feel pain. Never has been, isn't now, never will be. We don't all feel pain for the same reasons or in the same circumstances, and our feeling pain is no guarantee that it's own rational or procedural basis has been met. Pain misfires with regularity and can't actually be trusted to accurately report the conditions it purports to report.

If there were some creator picking parts off a shelf it may have omitted pain, and pain may have been intentionally made less obviously deficient as a means in and of itself...and..ofc... an omnipotent god could create human beings who don't experience it and are still human..after all, we can. So much for the forge and the god who created it for purpose. Stymied by generations of unplanned sex and accidental discoveries and changes in human behavior or circumstance which actively thwart it, eh? If pain were a forge, pain wouldn't be so prevalent in unteachable moments, or, if we prefer, the presence of pain in those unteachable moments, and very often the worst pain - demonstrates that the forge is itself an item of very poor design. The fact that pain actively harms our ability to learn, a flaw of the forge or ourselves or both - and both are ostensibly created by the hypothetical idiot of god who knows little or nothing of the specifics of it's own alleged creation.

All of that, and more...before we get to how much of an asshole you'd have to be to lay pain on the world through the power of your almighty magic - which you could have used for absolutely anything else.

[zwanzig]

But it seems to me that negative emotions are unavoidable, given what it is to be a human being.

Bolding is mine.

How do you know this? This is something you are assuming since pain, struggle, and negative emotions are a part of your existence. Apparently God didn't give you that good of an imagination because you cannot comprehend a life where you are the same creature/species without your suffering.

If there was life without pain and suffering to push us forward, we would learn a different way. We would adapt and grow a different way. It's not something I can really comprehend either but I know enough about my limitations to not say "It's impossible" because my existence is based on pain and suffering .

---

Sorry for the sidetracking further down the thread...I will abide by the serious tag.

I can recall being told to "offer up" anything bad we went through to god.  Maybe that's a Catholic thing, I don't know.  But it was some weird mental offering no matter if it was a physical pain or an emotional struggle.  I suppose it was a way to make us think what we went through was worthwhile.  Maybe it had a bit of the purgatory thing to it that you were working off some of your sin count if you offered up your suffering to god.  

Weird concept that the god that supposedly loves you also wants to be gifted with your pain.  But then, there's a lot of circling around and mental gymnastics to make things fit the narrative.

Another reason to leave it all behind.

This brings up a good point. That part of the gaslighting done by Christian religions in particular is that they are in actuality worshipping an entity that is evil and sadistic, feeding on the suffering of humanity. I know, that interpretation is not what they say and not a part of the lore. But any time I hear about things like this, or think about the human sacrifice in the Bible, it's hard to unsee it.

[The Grand Nudger]

I spend the vast majority of my time not having negative emotions. Aside from those who our hypothetical god has graced with clinical depression or terminal clumsiness, suffering is an alarming and temporary difference in our everyday lives. Most of the negative emotions I do have, are things like being pissed that my tea is too hot or cold or sweet...or not sweet enough.

We already learn and adapt and grow outside of pain, and spend a considerable amount of time ensuring that our children -can- learn without that barrier in place.

[Ranjr]

Pain makes pleasure feel better.

[brewer]

An argument I hate: A perfect God(omnipotent) made an imperfect world, with sin, pain, and negative emotions, because it was for our benefit. 

It's a justification for the "original sin" dogma.

[Brian37]

An argument I hate: A perfect God(omnipotent) made an imperfect world, with sin, pain, and negative emotions, because it was for our benefit. 

Every time I think about this, I get angry. 1. Because those who spout it don't even understand the concept of a painless existence or what learning in that existence would be like. So, how can you sit there and say, "I needed to suffer in order to learn and grow." There is no way for you to know that, because in this existence, pain and suffering is all you know. And 2. It's pure gaslighting on the part of this deity, who willed everything into existence and made the laws that govern the universe and thus our lives. I live at its behest, therefore, no matter how terrible my experience(which this deity claims responsibility for) I better be grateful. Or else.

The claim that "pain" as some bullshit superstitious, comic book God/god/deity/supernatural reason is just that. BULLSHIT.

Evolution is the reason pain exists. It is away of life surviving. That does not mean it is desirable, but just in that it happens.

I fucking get angry too. Don't argue to me that there is some magical sky baby sitter who can protect me but does not. I know why bad happens to me and it is not magical, it is because shit happens. Sure humans can seek ways to minimize harm to oneself, but that isn't a product of a cosmic Yoda or some Darth Vader competing over the neurons in one's brain. 


Suffering isn't a lesson, it is simply a matter of nature. If one can accept both friend and foe all die long term, the only conclusion one can come to is that "suffering" is not political, ideological, or religious or economic. It simply is a matter of the human condition.

That is not to say morality does not exist, or that humans cannot improve to reduce suffering. It is just to say that suffering isn't a patent or justification or magical or a reality show.

[John 6IX Breezy]

I think there is a gap between the argument you hate and your reasons why. Take pain for example:

1. We have pain receptors that are physically distinct from touch receptors; they are activated by different stimuli and take different paths to the brain. Pain itself is constructed in the brain from the information provided by these pain receptors. Analogous to your brain constructing vision from the information provided by your optic nerves and retina. 

2. Pain receptors are extremely important; one could objectively argue that this life would be misery without pain. Pain allows us to avoid harm, it engages important withdrawal reflexes, and it motivates us to rest and protect an injured limb to allow healing (Connors, 2016). There's a reason why being diagnosed with diabetes places you at risk of limb amputations: because nerve sensitive wears out, and risk of injury increases. In conclusion, I disagree with the argument you hate on various fronts as well. But it is clear that in our current state pain exists for our benefit: living without pain is not a blessing.

Reference: Connors, B., Bear, M., Paradiso, M. (2016). Neuroscience: Exploring the brain (4th ed.). Wolters Kluwer: New York. 

[The Grand Nudger]

The body control model of pain does not require and is not premised on the experience of pain. There are many other ways that living creatures appear to leverage a body control model without any evidence that they feel pain (and, fwiw, good reason to believe that ours is more like theirs than we'd care to consider). Pain isn't a blessing, pain isn't a curse. It's a function, there are many like it, but this one is ours. There's no particular reason that we couldn't leverage those other models (and no clear evidence that we don't), aside from the accidents of heredity.

[arewethereyet]

Pain makes pleasure feel better.

Hmmm...ponders this response...