Morality without God

[Superjock]

So I've never been that good at explaining to a theist how I justify my morality without God because I seem to fall into the trap where everything is just subjective and that kind of frustrates me.

Like if I say rape is immoral and a theist will say but that's just my subjective view. It's the law, sure but there is nothing fundamental grounding why it's wrong, it's just society and consensus agreeing that's it immoral. If, for example, society and consensus agreed that slavery was moral then it would be moral, etc.

I'm not well versed in the morality arguments, but I want to learn more so I can actually defend my moral foundation against theists because its something will inevitably come up in a debate. Your input, advice would be appreciated.

[Silver]

What it all boils down to is personally knowing you shouldn't do to someone something that you never want done to you.

Theists need a deity to tell them they shouldn't do something, when for rational individuals it is understood to treat others how one wants to be treated.

[zwanzig]

Well, I don't know a good defense of the atheist standard of morality but I do know how to shut down religious claims that they have objective morality because of God.

They don't. It's the same subjective standards an atheist would use to come up with the rules society should follow. God says "these are my commandments" as if those are the standards we should follow. But then when he kills people, when he encourages slavery, rape, and lying, it's okay because he says so. When he throws a petty, jealousy fit or shows a toxic version of pride, it's okay because he's God. Christians in particular follow the morality that "might makes right" when they tout their God as being a source of "objective" morality.

[Duty]

According to the bible, gathering firewood on a Sunday should be punishable by death. As a source of morality Christian scripture is fail.

[Fake Messiah]

Morality is based on compassion for other people's feelings: you don't want to rape somebody because that person will suffer, or you don't want to torture a cat because you know it will suffer.
And if someone doesn't have compassion that person is a psychopath.

For example, there is an interesting scene in the movie "Borat" where Borat goes to a comedy coach whom he asks if it is ok to laugh at retarded people, and the coach tells him it is not because retarded people have families who suffer.

[Superjock]

Well, I don't know a good defense of the atheist standard of morality but I do know how to shut down religious claims that they have objective morality because of God.

They don't. It's the same subjective standards an atheist would use to come up with the rules society should follow. God says "these are my commandments" as if those are the standards we should follow. But then when he kills people, when he encourages slavery, rape, and lying, it's okay because he says so. When he throws a petty, jealousy fit or shows a toxic version of pride, it's okay because he's God. Christians in particular follow the morality that "might makes right" when they tout their God as being a source of "objective" morality.

So I could say something like "if God commands you to sacrifice your children, would you do it?" and if not, why not? Because God is the source of morality so if he commands it then it is intrinsically good because he commanded it. Right?

Theists will often say "but you can't judge Gods moral character in your atheistic worldview" or ... upon what basis can you judge Gods morality when he is the source of morality itself?

I need to learn how to defend not only my atheistic morality but also how to attach theistic morality, so I've got my work cut out for me.

[Fake Messiah]

It's the law, sure but there is nothing fundamental grounding why it's wrong, it's just society and consensus agreeing that's it immoral. If, for example, society and consensus agreed that slavery was moral then it would be moral, etc.

That is true, and that is why morality is something that is constantly being worked on, and usually by people who express their disdain about stuff, like working conditions, a living wage, voting rights, animal rights, etc.

While Bible contains some "morality" rules set in stone written thousands of years ago which no one can change.

[Silver]

The more relevant point is the bible's erroneous claim to monopolizing morality.

[LadyForCamus]

You don’t really have to, though you could if you wanted to. The salient point is that no problem with secular morality is solved by theism.

[Gwaithmir]

“Some have made the love of God the foundation of morality. This too, is but a branch of our moral duties, which are generally divided in duties to God and duties to man. If we are to act merely from the love of God and a belief that is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist?...Diderot, D'Lambert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtues, then, must have some other foundation than the love of God.” (Thomas Jefferson)