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Why are angels always males?
#31
RE: Why are angels always males?
(April 20, 2021 at 3:06 pm)Drich Wrote:
(April 13, 2021 at 1:51 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Can you supply a complete sentence?

to me.. (extremely visual person) providing a 'complete sentence on a trivial, or self explanatory matter) is to speak condescendingly or speak down to you. remember connect the dots work books as a child? how some were so easy you could quickly see the pic? it's like how f'ing stupid does the artist think we are that we cant see the whole pic that we need to connect his dots to draw out a his specific clunky rabbit.

the same here. I gave all of the elements of the answer allowing you to compile those elements into a completed form without treating you like a moron.. that way you can build your own answer and get it right, leaving you with very little to argue if you use all the elements i provided.. so if you don't like the answer, you only have yourself to blame.

So the answer to my question is "no".
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#32
RE: Why are angels always males?
(April 21, 2021 at 10:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 20, 2021 at 3:06 pm)Drich Wrote: to me.. (extremely visual person) providing a 'complete sentence on a trivial, or self explanatory matter) is to speak condescendingly or speak down to you. remember connect the dots work books as a child? how some were so easy you could quickly see the pic? it's like how f'ing stupid does the artist think we are that we cant see the whole pic that we need to connect his dots to draw out a his specific clunky rabbit.

the same here. I gave all of the elements of the answer allowing you to compile those elements into a completed form without treating you like a moron.. that way you can build your own answer and get it right, leaving you with very little to argue if you use all the elements i provided.. so if you don't like the answer, you only have yourself to blame.

So the answer to my question is "no".
...and a "condescending" one, at that!  Hmph

This broken tool should be put on a hook out in the shed instead of posting gibberish on the internet. Though he's got many other broken tools around him on the 'net.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#33
RE: Why are angels always males?
(April 21, 2021 at 8:08 pm)Fireball Wrote:
(April 21, 2021 at 10:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote: So the answer to my question is "no".
...and a "condescending" one, at that!  Hmph

This broken tool should be put on a hook out in the shed instead of posting gibberish on the internet. Though he's got many other broken tools around him on the 'net.

He doesn't really bother me...he is too low to think he's on such a high horse.

He's a fake.  His attempts to sound smart fall flat.  He'd be a joke if he were in the least bit funny.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#34
RE: Why are angels always males?
(April 10, 2021 at 10:26 pm)Belacqua Wrote: The Bible is ambiguous about the appearance of angels. The Greek word "angelos" just means "messenger," and could refer to anyone delivering a message from God. A human being carrying a message could serve as an angel, even unwittingly, if he had such a message.

Later on the various creatures who exist in the hierarchy between people and God were categorized, most famously by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, into different types. Some looked more like people than others.

Since the Bible doesn't give clear descriptions of most angels, and Jews are notoriously opposed to visual representations, it posed a problem for people in Hellenistic and Roman culture who converted to Christianity and wanted pictures of angels. For the most part the artists simply used types of figures they already had. Pre-Christian and pagan psychopomps and genius figures served similar roles to angels in Hellenistic and Roman religions, so it was simplest to give Christian angels the same appearance.

https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/...AAABJiKOvK

Later, in the Renaissance, Cherubs (who are frightening high-level angels in scripture) were confused with Greek and Roman pictures of baby Eros or Erotes, giving rise to the strange picture of cute baby angels which we see in Raphael and on Valentine's Day cards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotes#/me...morini.JPG

I always thought that "angel" is a rank; in Islam Satan was with the angels even though he was a Jinn -then became a demon when he rebelled against God-; I think that gender simply doesn't fit that rank; i.e if a creature climbed to such rank, male/female doesn't fit their new existence anymore.
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#35
RE: Why are angels always males?
(May 4, 2021 at 3:17 am)WinterHold Wrote:
(April 10, 2021 at 10:26 pm)Belacqua Wrote: The Bible is ambiguous about the appearance of angels. The Greek word "angelos" just means "messenger," and could refer to anyone delivering a message from God. A human being carrying a message could serve as an angel, even unwittingly, if he had such a message.

Later on the various creatures who exist in the hierarchy between people and God were categorized, most famously by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, into different types. Some looked more like people than others.

Since the Bible doesn't give clear descriptions of most angels, and Jews are notoriously opposed to visual representations, it posed a problem for people in Hellenistic and Roman culture who converted to Christianity and wanted pictures of angels. For the most part the artists simply used types of figures they already had. Pre-Christian and pagan psychopomps and genius figures served similar roles to angels in Hellenistic and Roman religions, so it was simplest to give Christian angels the same appearance.

https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/...AAABJiKOvK

Later, in the Renaissance, Cherubs (who are frightening high-level angels in scripture) were confused with Greek and Roman pictures of baby Eros or Erotes, giving rise to the strange picture of cute baby angels which we see in Raphael and on Valentine's Day cards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotes#/me...morini.JPG

I always thought that "angel" is a rank; in Islam Satan was with the angels even though he was a Jinn -then became a demon when he rebelled against God-; I think that gender simply doesn't fit that rank; i.e if a creature climbed to such rank, male/female doesn't fit their new existence anymore.

Yes, the meaning of the word changed.

At first it was just "messenger," of any type. But as time went on and the types and ranks got categorized, the word took on two meanings. 

So the nine levels of celestial beings are (from top to bottom) the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. Confusingly enough, this hierarchy is called the nine levels of angels, but the bottom rank is called just "angels." 

None of these has gender, because we get gender when we fall into materiality, and angels are pure mind with no matter. They have location but not extension, mass, weight, etc. 

This is all the Christian view of course -- I don't know anything about the Muslim version! I have seen lovely pictures of Iblis looking jealously at Adam and Eve, which I guess led him to rebel....? 

In this picture he's in the lower left corner with gray skin, making the Islamic art gesture for puzzlement or confusion -- index finger to lips. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis#/med...alnama.jpg

Of course all the Christian stuff I've named is not in the Bible. The hierarchies and characteristics of angels is all defined later, and I don't know how much of it is considered dogma for Catholics. Do you know how much of the Iblis story is in the Koran, officially? 

Also, can you tell me about Jinns? Are they always bad? I'm asking because daemons, called geniuses in Latin, were messenger spirits much like angels, but they could be either helpful or harmful. Socrates famously had a helpful daemon. But in English you can still express the idea of a mischievous, misleading daemon by saying "He has a genius for getting into trouble." That is, his genius -- guiding spirit -- leads him to get into fights in bars or something like that. Are Jinns like this?
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#36
RE: Why are angels always males?
(May 4, 2021 at 4:43 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(May 4, 2021 at 3:17 am)WinterHold Wrote: I always thought that "angel" is a rank; in Islam Satan was with the angels even though he was a Jinn -then became a demon when he rebelled against God-; I think that gender simply doesn't fit that rank; i.e if a creature climbed to such rank, male/female doesn't fit their new existence anymore.

Yes, the meaning of the word changed.

At first it was just "messenger," of any type. But as time went on and the types and ranks got categorized, the word took on two meanings. 

So the nine levels of celestial beings are (from top to bottom) the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. Confusingly enough, this hierarchy is called the nine levels of angels, but the bottom rank is called just "angels." 

None of these has gender, because we get gender when we fall into materiality, and angels are pure mind with no matter. They have location but not extension, mass, weight, etc. 

This is all the Christian view of course -- I don't know anything about the Muslim version! I have seen lovely pictures of Iblis looking jealously at Adam and Eve, which I guess led him to rebel....? 

In this picture he's in the lower left corner with gray skin, making the Islamic art gesture for puzzlement or confusion -- index finger to lips. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iblis#/med...alnama.jpg

Of course all the Christian stuff I've named is not in the Bible. The hierarchies and characteristics of angels is all defined later, and I don't know how much of it is considered dogma for Catholics. Do you know how much of the Iblis story is in the Koran, officially? 

I tend to avoid believing in any kind of "Anthropomorphism" when it comes to religion.
As for the ranks of the angels, the Quran in contrast to your categorization gives this only verse about their "levels":

Quote:Sura 35, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 1 )   [All] praise is [due] to Allah, Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Then, these two wings, three wings and 4 wings creatures have different jobs, for example there are the "carriers of God's throne":

Quote:Sura 40, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 7 )   Those [angels] who carry the Throne and those around it exalt [Allah] with praise of their Lord and believe in Him and ask forgiveness for those who have believed, [saying], "Our Lord, You have encompassed all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who have repented and followed Your way and protect them from the punishment of Hellfire.

Another job they do is punishing God's enemies:

Quote:Sura 8, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 50 )   And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved... They are striking their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire.

There are other verses that specifies some of  them with their exact name:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 98 )   Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

So, I would say from these verses that "angels are celestial messengers who differ in jobs". Just that.
I won't go as far as categorizing them in ranks because the Quran doesn't provide enough data or exact data on such matter.


Quote:Also, can you tell me about Jinns? Are they always bad? I'm asking because daemons, called geniuses in Latin, were messenger spirits much like angels, but they could be either helpful or harmful. Socrates famously had a helpful daemon. But in English you can still express the idea of a mischievous, misleading daemon by saying "He has a genius for getting into trouble." That is, his genius -- guiding spirit -- leads him to get into fights in bars or something like that. Are Jinns like this?


As for the "Jinn", there is a whole Sura in the Quran that speaks just about them (Sura 72), I will use verses from it to demonstrate my belief about them:

Quote:Sura 72,The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 4 )   And that our foolish one has been saying about Allah an excessive transgression.
( 5 )   And we had thought that mankind and the jinn would never speak about Allah a lie.


Their foolish one is "Satan"; which is evident that many Jinn are actually against Satan.

Quote:Sura 72,The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 8 )   And we have sought [to reach] the heaven but found it filled with powerful guards and burning flames.

( 9 )   And we used to sit therein in positions for hearing, but whoever listens now will find a burning flame lying in wait for him.

The Jinn were space travelers way before humans even evolved in earth, they even had their own listening outposts in space (mankind has "satellites" that listen in space too nowadays). But the Jinn's satellites (or listening outposts) faced the same problem mankind's outposts face: destruction from comets.

Quote:Sura 72,The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 11 )   And among us are the righteous, and among us are [others] not so; we were [of] divided ways.
( 12 )   And we have become certain that we will never cause failure to Allah upon earth, nor can we escape Him by flight.


Some of the Jinn are righteous, others are bad. The ones who follow "Satan's" way are called "demons".

That's my personal faith about them. So I believe they are an ancient race that preceded humanity, some of them are good and some of them are bad, they had their own space programs and their own saints that were so high in rank (such as Satan), who rebelled against God and had a grudge against the new created being that will replace his race in life.

That's it about my belief about Jinn. They are neither smarter nor scary beings like Hollywood and so many Christians and Sunni-Shiite Muslims picture them: they are a race of creatures different from us.
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#37
RE: Why are angels always males?
(May 4, 2021 at 11:48 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I tend to avoid believing in any kind of "Anthropomorphism" when it comes to religion.
This is wise, I think. As much as I love all that medieval and Renaissance art, the way they show angels has led to misunderstanding. There's a good reason for refraining from such imagery. 
Quote:Then, these two wings, three wings and 4 wings creatures have different jobs, for example there are the "carriers of God's throne":

There are a lot of similarities here between what you say here and the Christian tradition that developed over the centuries. It would be very interesting to know about cross-influences, common sources, etc. Ancient Mesopotamian and Sumerian art has multi-winged creatures before either Christianity or Islam were up and running, so I suspect they have roots in the same ideas. 

Pseudo-Dionysius, who did the most to describe angels in the Christian tradition, was from Syria, so he would be closer to Middle Eastern sources, at least geographically. 

He and Dante and others used to give angels a large and varied role, as you describe. Classical theologians often insisted that God himself took no action -- being perfect and impassible he could not change or move -- so interventions in the material world were ascribed to the angels acting on his behalf. They would know what was necessary without God giving them a push. 

These days I'm reading Marsilio Ficino, and he works hard to connect the angels with Plato's Ideas. He puts them in the level just "below" God himself. Since God is complete unity, the Ideas or the angels are the first emanation into multiplicity. From there, they act in the world in their various ways. 

Quote:Some of the Jinn are righteous, others are bad. The ones who follow "Satan's" way are called "demons".

This is very interesting! Again there are fascinating similarities between Jinn the spirits that the Romans called geniuses -- though differences too. It would be very nice to know about how the ideas developed, and from where.

You know that the guy who lives in Aladdin's lamp is called a "genie" in English. I had always assumed that it was a Jinn, but that the use of the word "genie" showed it to be the same species of thing as a Roman genius. Now I've been Googling, and it turns out that this coincidence can't be traced back farther than the French translator of The 1001 Nights. The French word for genius is "genie," and that guy thought it sounded similar to "jinn," as well as familiar to French readers. So he called it a genie and somehow the French word got taken into English. 

The scholars speculate that the words have a common root, but apparently no one's sure. It just seems too good to be a coincidence. 

If you meet one, please ask him!

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such a complete way. I love learning about these things.
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#38
RE: Why are angels always males?
(May 4, 2021 at 11:48 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The Jinn were space travelers way before humans even evolved in earth, they even had their own listening outposts in space (mankind has "satellites" that listen in space too nowadays). But the Jinn's satellites (or listening outposts) faced the same problem mankind's outposts face: destruction from comets.
[...]
That's my personal faith about them. So I believe they are an ancient race that preceded humanity, some of them are good and some of them are bad, they had their own space programs and their own saints that were so high in rank (such as Satan), who rebelled against God and had a grudge against the new created being that will replace his race in life.

This topic is getting really "intellectual"
[Image: aliens.jpg]
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#39
RE: Why are angels always males?
(May 5, 2021 at 4:26 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(May 4, 2021 at 11:48 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I tend to avoid believing in any kind of "Anthropomorphism" when it comes to religion.
This is wise, I think. As much as I love all that medieval and Renaissance art, the way they show angels has led to misunderstanding. There's a good reason for refraining from such imagery.
In terms of "artistic taste", medieval art fascinates me, I love the creativity but despise the reflection, it's like a direct portal to the kind of mentality that generation had; sad thing is that many religious people think that "the real picture" is just like that art. I mean look at Churches for example. Actually I'm sure that some Muslims think that God is "a Sultan sitting with a turban and carrying a huge sword", and some theists think of Satan as "a half reddish goat-man with horns".

Quote:There are a lot of similarities here between what you say here and the Christian tradition that developed over the centuries. It would be very interesting to know about cross-influences, common sources, etc. Ancient Mesopotamian and Sumerian art has multi-winged creatures before either Christianity or Islam were up and running, so I suspect they have roots in the same ideas. 

Pseudo-Dionysius, who did the most to describe angels in the Christian tradition, was from Syria, so he would be closer to Middle Eastern sources, at least geographically. 


I believe that the source of religion in general was the same, I think you will be interested to see that the Quran asserts this:

Quote:Sura 23, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 43 )   No nation will precede its time [of termination], nor will they remain [thereafter].

( 44 )   Then We sent Our messengers in succession. Every time there came to a nation its messenger, they denied him, so We made them follow one another [to destruction], and We made them narrations. So away with a people who do not believe.

The Sumerian, the Ancient Egyptians, all civilizations were contacted by the same God through human messengers carrying God's message, I think that's why angels -for example- have the same form in almost all religions. There is always the "winged creatures" who serve as "celestial high beings", some civilizations even worshiped them.



Quote:He and Dante and others used to give angels a large and varied role, as you describe. Classical theologians often insisted that God himself took no action -- being perfect and impassible he could not change or move -- so interventions in the material world were ascribed to the angels acting on his behalf. They would know what was necessary without God giving them a push. 

Ancient Arabs used to follow a pagan religion that focuses on "partners of the central God", so you would have the supreme God -mostly neglected as you say- and all worship is directed to his partners.

You can detect immediately that this rings a bell with the relationship of "God" with the "Angels" in Islam: but in Islam the difference is that they are servants of God who act upon his commands, while in the pagan religions they are "independent mini-Gods".
Quote:
Quote:Some of the Jinn are righteous, others are bad. The ones who follow "Satan's" way are called "demons".

This is very interesting! Again there are fascinating similarities between Jinn the spirits that the Romans called geniuses -- though differences too. It would be very nice to know about how the ideas developed, and from where.

You know that the guy who lives in Aladdin's lamp is called a "genie" in English. I had always assumed that it was a Jinn, but that the use of the word "genie" showed it to be the same species of thing as a Roman genius. Now I've been Googling, and it turns out that this coincidence can't be traced back farther than the French translator of The 1001 Nights. The French word for genius is "genie," and that guy thought it sounded similar to "jinn," as well as familiar to French readers. So he called it a genie and somehow the French word got taken into English. 

The scholars speculate that the words have a common root, but apparently no one's sure. It just seems too good to be a coincidence. 

If you meet one, please ask him!

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such a complete way. I love learning about these things.




lol, I never knew that the origin of the word "genie" is Roman :p Arabs and Muslims in general say that the word "Gen" جن means :

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AC%D9%86/

Quote:Gin: (noun) The plural of jinn, Moaniyah: Unlike people, they are named because they are hidden from people, and are invisible creatures of fire. The world of jinn is scary

But I think your explanation for it is more reasonable and accurate: I never knew Romans believed in "gins" ! very interesting.

You are welcome, and hey it's my pleasure :Smile I enjoy talking about these stuff.
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#40
RE: Why are angels always males?
The certainty that angels are male because of their name isn' t quite as sure that the girl you met at Mardi Gras being female because she has a nice set of tits....




Hehe
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