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Do you know WikiIslam ?
#41
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(March 26, 2022 at 4:21 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: He's referring to the game of telephone.  That's what they call it.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_stu...20of%20the
Oh I know what he's referring to I was just mocking it Great
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#42
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(June 10, 2021 at 10:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote:
(June 5, 2021 at 8:35 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: What killed that "golden age"? There is no doubt that islam did indeed have a "golden age" of enlightenment, education, erudition and so forth. What stopped it? Islam stopped it in an orgy of cannabilism. Islam ate itself. All that accumulated learning was tossed right out in favour of superstitious crap. By Islam.

You should be more concerned about why there was a golden age in the first place. If Islam prohibited enlightenment and erudition, this epoch wouldn't have existed. What stopped it has to do with very complicated political problems that have nothing to do with Islam.

But why did you not mention that islam killed the scientific golden age of arab cultures?
Why do you let Abaddon_ire to do it for you.

If you were an encyclopedia or history book, would you not mention that information?
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#43
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
The fact that there was a golden age that Islam did in fact kill is irrelevant as modern Islam has made its devotion to anti-intellectualism known.
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
#44
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(April 15, 2022 at 9:39 pm)Helios Wrote: The fact that there was a golden age that Islam did in fact kill is irrelevant as modern Islam has made its devotion to anti-intellectualism known.

No problem. Let's mention that as well in our encyclopedias and history books because a hundred or 1000 y from now, nobody is going to remember the details of the 21th century. Future generations would like to know about these generalities. How many muslims reject abiogenesis? How many reject evolution theory? How many believe that fasting during the ramadan improves your health?
What about those who are scientists and also muslim. What do they think about abiogenesis and evolution theory and the big bang theory?

It looked like the couple of muslims that are commenting here did not want to state that muslims shut down arabic scientific progress long ago. They did not mention that arab muslims have destroyed the library of Alexandria and some portion of the texts survived their destruction.

It's the same problem with marketing. They show you how great the iPhone is but they don't mention to you its limitations, its defects, its lifespan. It is as if they don't want to tell us the bad news.
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#45
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(April 15, 2022 at 9:24 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: But why did you not mention that islam killed the scientific golden age of arab cultures?

Lol, it's called the Islamic golden age, not the Arabic Golden age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Many famous scholars of this era weren't Arabs, such as Al-Khwarizmi (persian), who presented the first systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#46
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
You know...they only call it the islamic golden age because mo told suzy, who overheard bob say to phil.....

Islam was an absolute cancer on the state of knowledge in the regions it conquered. This wasn't specifically islams fault. Mostly, because islam didn't know shit when it started appropriating the work of others. To the point that other peoples mistakes wound up in magic book..as the magic book believers found other peoples work so compelling compared to whatever stories they'd been telling each other by the campfire.

If you really believed, and if you respected the message of islam, you'd be trying to make the present and the future closer to the past you imagine, not retconning easily researchable events here on af.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#47
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(March 18, 2022 at 5:51 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 28, 2022 at 2:42 pm)viocjit Wrote: If we interpret it literally. It said Adam was made with clay.

And there is nothing wrong with this interpretation. Look up 'clay minerals and the origin of life' and you will get extensive literature related to this subject.

(February 28, 2022 at 2:42 pm)viocjit Wrote: Evolution theory prove there was not a first human because they were first humans of both sex appearing at the same time.

There obviously was a first homo sapien since homo sapiens didn't exist forever. You have this famous axiom in mathematics called the well-ordering principle : any finite set of natural numbers has a minimal element, and the axiom is shown to be equivalent to mathematical induction.

The set of homo sapiens can be assigned to natural numbers (say, by numbering their birthdays in chronological order) which means that there was, necessarily, mathematically, a first homo sapien.

(February 28, 2022 at 2:42 pm)viocjit Wrote: How can we be sure chain of narrators wasn't forged ?
How can we be sure not any hadith was forged ?
Do we have a book of ahadith dating back from Muhammad era ?

The first known hadith compilation document was authored by 'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As, who was born 60 years after the prophet PBUH's death. Before that, oral tradition was the most widespread means of preserving the prophet's sayings.

There is an entire discipline called hadith studies that specializes in evaluating the chain of narrators and the authenticity of hadiths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_studies

It's a very broad subject and it's difficult to summarize it in a short post.

I think you seriously need to study evolution theory because there wasn't a first homo sapiens as you claim.

For ahadith between oral tradition and the preserving of these with writing.
There are a lapse of time.

If Ahmed told a thing to Bilal (Youngest brother of Ahmed).
Bilal can involuntary deform what said Ahmed to him when he will speak to Tahseen (Wife of Bilal).
Tahseen will report Bilal sayings to Jamila (Oldest sister of Tahseen) without deform these but she will use others words with the same meaning.
Jamila will tell the sayings to another one and deforming these involuntary etc...

If you tell a thing to Andrew and tell the same thing to Beckie some years after your talk with Andrew.
You won't use the same words even if they had the same meanings.
What you will tell to each of them can be a bit different if you give more details to Beckie.
What you will tell to each of them will be a bit different if you say they were between 5 to 10 men to Andrew and between 6 to 15 men to Beckie.
Therefore they will tell a different story if they report what you said to them.

(March 18, 2022 at 7:05 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Wikislam?

Is that another Space Jam movie?

You have humor.
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#48
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(April 18, 2022 at 1:25 am)viocjit Wrote: I think you seriously need to study evolution theory because there wasn't a first homo sapiens as you claim.

What kind of drugs are you taking lately ?

I don't need to study anything to know that a finite collection of people contains its oldest individual. This is kindergaten logic.

The collection of all homo sapiens contains the oldest homo sapien. The first homo sapien = the oldest homo sapien. QED.

(April 18, 2022 at 1:25 am)viocjit Wrote: If Ahmed told a thing to Bilal (Youngest brother of Ahmed).
Bilal can involuntary deform what said Ahmed to him when he will speak to Tahseen (Wife of Bilal).
Tahseen will report Bilal sayings to Jamila (Oldest sister of Tahseen) without deform these but she will use others words with the same meaning.
Jamila will tell the sayings to another one and deforming these involuntary etc...

If you tell a thing to Andrew and tell the same thing to Beckie some years after your talk with Andrew.
You won't use the same words even if they had the same meanings.
What you will tell to each of them can be a bit different if you give more details to Beckie.
What you will tell to each of them will be a bit different if you say they were between 5 to 10 men to Andrew and between 6 to 15 men to Beckie.
Therefore they will tell a different story if they report what you said to them.

It takes serious brain damage to compare the sayings of a social reformer who claimed he communicates with God and managed to convince hundreds of thousands (in his lifetime) to the sayings of Ahmad and Jamila.

Martin Luther King said : "I have a dream". Do you think this simple utterance of 4 words will be deformed with time, given how well-known it is?

The same thing is true about the sayings of any social reformer, his sayings are repeated and studied by large crowds of people, implemented in legal systems, in school curriculums, etc. Muslim scholars devised an additional discipline called the science of hadiths to evaluate the chains of narrators. Any narrator should have a record of reproducing texts accurately from memory, and of taking his Islamic faith very seriously, which includes being morally upright and not distorting facts. Maybe the better question is how they can possibly miss what the prophet (who they believe is sent by God) have said..!

Hadiths are very easy to remember in Arabic (and to recognize!) and I can tell you very quickly (without being a scholar or even a sharia' student) whether a particular hadith is authentic or not. 

And it also sounds you have a very distorted way of looking at lapses of time.. 14 centuries for example is just 20 successive individuals who lived for 70 years on average.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#49
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
Yeah, you can just see it, he personal interacted with hundreds of thousands taking the time to convince them all. Yet another miracle, and also, conveniently...not something that actually happened.

The science of the hadiths, again with that nonsense. Game of telephone. MLK was a bad bet, it's high nutball sport over here to creatively misremember mlks speeches in support of inequality and disenfranchisement. It not only will be deformed by time, it already has been. Do you think that might also be true of your hadith - or is this, on second thought, not the way? Do you think that god split the moon in two, and that a game of telephone can gaurantee that premise as a fact..or is it even remotely possible that islam split the moon cults social authority in two - and you hilariously believe in a garbled version of the narrative that was never intentionally meant to make islam sound so stupid in the first place?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#50
RE: Do you know WikiIslam ?
(April 18, 2022 at 1:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yeah, you can just see it, he personal interacted with hundreds of thousands taking the time to convince them all.  

Why would he need to personally interact with everybody? I can be convinced of Martin Luther King's speeches without ever seeing him.. I just need his speeches.

(April 18, 2022 at 1:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The science of the hadiths, again with that nonsense.  

Yeah it's pretty important for Muslims, y'know. Without hadiths, there is no way to know how to perform the most basic religious rituals, starting with prayer.

It's actually more important than that, it's not clear what being a Muslim means in practice if we exclude the hadiths. The so-called 5 pillars of Islam are only found in an authentic hadith. 

This explains how some people can end up thinking that hell is black hole.. when reading verses of the Qur'an in isolation, without being equipped at all to interpret it correctly.

(April 18, 2022 at 1:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you think that god split the moon in two, and that a game of telephone can gaurantee that premise as a fact

Not really. If a person believes that:

(1) God exists and intervenes in the world.
(2) The Qur'an is the word of God and inerrant.

Then it follows that one believes that God split the moon, as this miracle is actually mentioned in the Qur'an, an entire chapter of it is called al-Qamar (moon in Arabic).

The Hour has drawn near and the moon was split ˹in two˺. (54:1)

In short, we believe in this miracle because we believe some premises about the Qur'an being of divine source and inerrant etc etc. Not directly because of the chain of narrators.

There are however other reported miracles that aren't found in the Qur'an, like the prophet feeding a small amount of food to almost 300 people, this is an authentic hadith as far as I can remember, it's similar to the "feeding of the multitude" miracle in the Gospels.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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