Why do you not believe in the concept of a God?

[johndoe122931]

This guy:
Exactly my point.

Juan Perez:
What's the point?

This guy:
I asked a question, you completely evaded answering. Barry Sanders was very good at evading the opposition. Hence, did he train you?

Juan Perez:
What question?

Still ducking and weaving?

lol I guess so

[Belacqua]

But I'm interested in what you said about Zeus being a fallen angel. It seems like that is some kind of cobbled-together ad hoc belief.

John can answer this in a more personal way, I'm sure. But I can supply some background.

The idea that the Greek/Roman gods were fallen angels is a very old one, probably from Jewish thought predating Christianity. The Christians took it up, of course. I don't know if it qualifies as ad hoc, but it was a kind of obvious transitional idea.  

For Jews their God was the best or most powerful. For Christians, their God was fundamentally unlike the Greek gods, being more like the Neoplatonic One, or the Form of the Good, or Actus Purus. By definition there can only be one of these, so a pantheon of gods doesn't make sense. They were comfortable, though, with the idea of beings intermediate between people and God, including angels. So back when belief in the Greek/Roman pantheon was still popular, the monotheists often didn't argue that those gods weren't real, but that they were intermediate, and not as powerful as had been previously thought. Some called them daemons -- but remember that for Greeks daemons weren't necessarily bad. Others associated them with the fallen angels who became evil daemons (demons in the modern sense) after the Fall. 

I've never been able to find a single source which originated this idea. It seems to have been pretty widespread. I first learned about it from manuscript illuminations which showed prophets or saints walking down the street and, through their superior virtue, causing Greek statues to fall off their columns. 

The idea of the Fallen Angels is only hinted at in the Bible, and is based mostly in the Enochian pseudepigrapha. (Writings attributed to the prophet Enoch, which probably weren't really written by him.) As you know, Hebrew scripture tends to deal more with this-world, political problems than Christian writings. Their Messiah isn't magic, but a political leader who will save the nation of Israel. Their prophets, even when having wild visions, are mostly either hoping for a renewal of the nation or are scolding their fellow Jews, whom they think have fallen into evil ways. So right from the beginning the Enochian writings were interpreted allegorically. The Fallen Angels were seen as, among other things, Jewish leaders or rabbis who had fallen away from proper behavior. 

Probably the key point is that, for strict Jews, the most worrying temptation at that time was Hellenization of Hebrew culture. They saw this as a dilution away from strict Torah practices. So it made sense to depict the bad influences, and people who had fallen away, as figures in the Greek pantheon. Saying that Zeus is a fallen angel was a way of expressing that Greek influences cause good Jews to fall away from their truth. 

John is the first person I've encountered who holds this belief today.

[Angrboda]

So, let's use Zeus for example. I simply believe that Zeus is just one of the Fallen Angels masquerading itself as a god. All the regional gods of the earth are simply that. They are the fallen ones. So, yes I believe in Zeus and Krishna and Ra, etc. They are placing themselves as gods on this earth to be worshipped by humans. I truly believe them to be real entities that roam this planet since they were cast out of heaven.

Then you don't believe in Zeus.  You're just playing semantic games.  Saying you believe X only if we're willing to accept you redefining X as something it's not  is equivocation.

No, not at all. I believe Zeus is a fallen angel. He doesn't have to be Satan perse I only used that name for example. And just for everybody to understand I am only telling you what I believe to be true. I am very much expecting you all to ridicule me and the like, but this is not up for debate nor argument. This is what I believe and that's that. If you want to twist and turn what I say into what makes you feel comfortable to continue the ridicule I am totally cool with that. Go ahead and tell me what I believe, but that is not going to get you any closer to really trying to understand me or my beliefs. Yet, I suspect you all really don't care what I believe and that's fine with me too.

I'm not ridiculing you. I'm pointing out that what you're saying is wrong. It would be akin to my saying that I believe in Jesus Christ, but by Jesus Christ I mean a moldy piece of cheese in the back of my fridge. It's using a word that refers to something in two different senses simultaneously, implying the meaning of Zeus as a god in order to communicate that you believe in a god, but in reality meaning something that is not a god. Zeus is a god. If what you're referring to isn't a god, then that's not Zeus. You're just trying to trick and deceive people by using misleading and fallacious words. Or do you accept that Jesus Christ refers to a piece of moldy cheese? What you're doing is equivocating on the meaning of the term Zeus, which is a fallacy, and makes what you say invalid.

[Abaddon_ire]

Now your claim has morphed into stating you believe in all claimed god/s with the exception of the FSM, maybe.

You understand that is in direct opposition to Baptist beliefs, right?

How so?

Because your professed Baptist faith requires that you believe in one and only one god. Not many.

However, that is now irrelevant, since the conversation has moved along.

It now seems that you believe in one god, and that all the other claimed gods are manifestations of satan or other similar deceitful spirits. Or possibly fictional, entirely made up as a device of fiction, such as Eru. Or possibly the result of a mistake and/or delusion, such as, the John Frum of cargo cult fame.

Is that closer to your position?

[polymath257]

I was raised by my grandparents while my mother went away to college. My genetic father was not
on the scene at all (long story).

My grandmother was very religious and so I was raised in the Luteran church (Trinity Lutheran)
in a small town in central Kansas. I learned the sories of the Bible, memorized catechism,
got stars on my work for reciting things well, and probably appeared to be an ordinary kid
at the time.

But I don't think I ever fully believed what I was being told. The disconnect was very early.
I was told to pray and that this was a way to communicate to God. Since my grandparents both
said this, and they were taking care of me, I tried to do what they said. But I never had any
sort of response. All I had was me talking to a void.

I was also very interested in science as a kid: dinosaurs, astronomy, etc. And it quickly became
clear that there was a conflict between the millions of years described in the science books
and the few thousand years described in the Bible. So, very quickly, I settled to the idea that
the Biblical stories were similar to Aesop's fables: little morality tales to teach us how to
act, but not something to be taken literally. This worked for a while.

But eventually, I realiized that the people in my Sunday and Wednesday school classes thought the
stories were literally true: that Joseph's coat of many colors was a historical fact and NOT
simply a story about sibling rivalry (and other things). I found this perplexing, but kept my
doubts to myself because I didn't want to upset my grandmother.

As time went on, I kept memorizing catechism and doing well in the tasks assigned to me. Then
I realized that I would have to say I actually believed these things to be confirmed. And I realized
that I simply did not believe these things. So I had a moral quandry: should I lie and say I
believe when I didn't or should I refuse to lie and thereby greatly disappoint my grandmother
(who always wanted me to grow up to be 'a fine christian boy')? I saw it as partly a question
of my own well-being: my food, clothing, and shelter came from my grandparents.

Well, as luck would have it, my mother graduated and got a job (and married) so I went to be
taken care of by her. My mother was not as religious (for a number of reasons) and did not
require me to be confirmed nor even to go to church. So, while I would still disappoint my
grandmother, a refusal to go to church would not jeapordize my well-being.

None-the-less, I was still interested in the ideas of God and the supernatural (even if I didn't
think the Bible was an accurate description). I explored spritualism, buddhism, meditation, and
whatever I could to test the ideas concerning these things.

After a while, I realized that I was constructing castles in the air and that none of it actually
had any good evidentiary basis. I saw it as an elaborate fantasy; a pleasing work of fiction.
But I found that I did not actually believe any of it. Buddhism came the closest (there is even a
quote saying that is relief of pain is not your goal, find your own path--I did).

It is now 30 years later. I go to places of worship (churches, temples, mosques) only for
ceremonies I have been invited to or as a tourist (Istambul has some beautiful mosques). Once
I stopped worrying about the supernatural, I found a freedom (and responsibility) to figure out
for myself twhat I consider to be 'good' and 'my purpose in life'. To walk away from the fictions
and hold myself to evidence was incredibly liberating. I have been happier and more at peace
since the full break than I ever was prior.

So, was I ever a believer? When I was young, I believed what I was told until I had reason not
to. I certainly held the 'God concept' as a possibility and understood it to be almost universally
believed. But the evidence of my own investigations (or lack thereof) was always a counter to the
claims of others. Ultimately, I found that I just didn't believe and that I thought that others
were wrong. To admit that was a very positive thing for me.

[Mister Agenda]

So, let's use Zeus for example. I simply believe that Zeus is just one of the Fallen Angels masquerading itself as a god. All the regional gods of the earth are simply that. They are the fallen ones. So, yes I believe in Zeus and Krishna and Ra, etc. They are placing themselves as gods on this earth to be worshipped by humans. I truly believe them to be real entities that roam this planet since they were cast out of heaven.

I'm a little surprised to find that you are one of those Christians comfortable with calling the gods of other religions demonic when you're so hurt that atheists aren't more respectful of your particular deity. How is your contempt for the gods of other religions better than that of Dawkins' contempt for yours?

[Brian37]

I was raised Catholic by a Catholic father and Methodist mother.  Neither one put much stock in religion though I was put through the paces of a Catholic upbringing to include Catechism classes on Saturday mornings till I ended up in Catholic schools in the 6th grade and on through high school.

There was never a time that I really believed any of it.  I just went along with the rituals because that's what we did.  I saw the Bible as not really different from any other fairy tale and was actually surprised to find out that some people believe it's an historical account.

Various things happened along the way and I prayed fervently for god to help.  He didn't.  I keep trying to believe but it just didn't take with me.  In my early 20s I finally realized that I really didn't believe I had just been told that I believe.  Some time spent searching for a new faith practice led me to figure out that I didn't have to pretend to believe.  Not really any anger or hatred, just nothing.  Whatever it is that others claim to feel didn't happen to me.  And that's okay.

I wasted my pre teens and teens pining after a girl growing up. The first time I saw her, I think I was 9 or 10. I first saw her in the Catholic Church just down the road from my street. I was so insecure, I couldn't talk to her for years. When I switch from private school, my first year of public Highschool, I was at a football game, and looked across the field to see her, as the rival team cheerleader. But I still went to that Catholic Church, not to find God, but just to be near her. Eventually, I transferred to her High School, again, for the same stupid reason, just to be near her. Of course looking back at it now, it was all bullshit. 

I think my childish pining after her, is akin to why people join religions. The desire for love, conformation and inclusion. 

But even outside that pining for that girl, I went through the paces of the rituals of going to church for the same stupid reason. I wanted to fit in.

Eventually though, I stopped going to Church in my late teens. But even then, I didn't give up on a God, I simply stopped buying into organized religion. And not because of that girl's rejection of me. But I simply couldn't place my bullshit detector of the Priest's claims, but by that time being fresh out of Highschool, his words were not passing the smell test, even though I wasn't sure why. 

One of the earliest memories of thinking to myself "that doesn't make sense" was after one Sunday the Priest was doing a sermon about "Your body is a Temple" and literally after the "service", (as an aside, I hate that word, it isn't a service, it is a comic book club) anyway, after that sermon, I walk outside only to se the Priest smoking. That was one of my earliest memories of skepticism. I couldn't put it adult language like I understand now, because I was young. 

Point is in both the cases of pining after that girl, and wanting to fit in, in both cases, the girl and religion, my insecurities lead me to do and believe stupid shit.

[HappySkeptic]

Point is in both the cases of pining after that girl, and wanting to fit in, in both cases, the girl and religion, my insecurities lead me to do and believe stupid shit.

I had a very similar situation.  Cheers to teenage stupidity.

[Irreligious Atheist]

Yes, I still have a positive relationship with my parents. My daughter and I even go to church with them often. I told my daughter what I believe (or better put, don't believe), and I told her that she would have to choose for herself what she believes because we all have to go on our own journey. She believed in God for a while, but now she has come to the opposite conclusion, all on her own, and I'm proud.

Both of my brothers, along with me, turned out to be non-believers. I'm sure that can't be easy for my parents to think about, but we get along just fine. Sometimes my parents say that I'm saved already because they are saved. I'm counted under their names. I don't think it quite works that way lol, but I can understand the mental gymnastics, trying to find a way to get your kids into heaven with you.

What was I free to explore? Lots of stuff. Just things I probably wouldn't have bothered looking into before because I would have been worried about angering or disappointing God. Things about evolution. Things about other religions. Posting on boards like this one, which I would argue the Bible says you're not necessarily supposed to do. "Cast not your pearls before swine" and all.

That's awesome to hear. I'm glad you allowed your child to make a choice as to what she wants to believe. I do the same with my children as well. I'm happy to hear to still have a decent relationship with your family and parents, that would mean a lot to me to still talk to my family. I am curious as to what denomination you were. From the things you are saying about your parents still think you are saved because they are and the fact you were not allowed to study subject matters opposite of the belief. The Biblical reference you give to Matthew 7 I personally do not believe that is what it is saying so but in any case, I am happy to hear all the positives in your life. Thank you for sharing that!

---

So, let's use Zeus for example. I simply believe that Zeus is just one of the Fallen Angels masquerading itself as a god. All the regional gods of the earth are simply that. They are the fallen ones. So, yes I believe in Zeus and Krishna and Ra, etc. They are placing themselves as gods on this earth to be worshipped by humans. I truly believe them to be real entities that roam this planet since they were cast out of heaven.

Then you don't believe in Zeus.  You're just playing semantic games.  Saying you believe X only if we're willing to accept you redefining X as something it's not  is equivocation.

No, not at all. I believe Zeus is a fallen angel. He doesn't have to be Satan perse I only used that name for example. And just for everybody to understand I am only telling you what I believe to be true. I am very much expecting you all to ridicule me and the like, but this is not up for debate nor argument. This is what I believe and that's that. If you want to twist and turn what I say into what makes you feel comfortable to continue the ridicule I am totally cool with that. Go ahead and tell me what I believe, but that is not going to get you any closer to really trying to understand me or my beliefs. Yet, I suspect you all really don't care what I believe and that's fine with me too.

---

This guy:
Exactly my point.

Juan Perez:
What's the point?

I asked a question, you completely evaded answering. Barry Sanders was very good at evading the opposition. Hence, did he train you?

What question?

---

I can believe in the concept of a god just like I can believe in the concept of a powerful wizard. Conceptually they are pretty much the same thing. Of course there is no evidence that either exists.

Believing in the concept of something is not the same as believing that the concept actually exists.

It does boggle my mind that people believe that something exists without any evidence of existence.
Why would I believe that my house is 1000 stories tall, when I can easily view it and confirm with others and through measurements that it's only 1 story tall ?

Why would someone believe something like that ?
A belief that a god exists is the same as believing that my house is 1000 stories tall and it grants wishes when you reach the 1000th floor.

Good evening Rahn127,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, I really appreciate it!

---

I find agnostic atheism to be the most defensible and rational position based on what I've observed in life and after examining the arguments. I've examined many arguments for theism and (for the most part) found them to be pretty weak. But I still love discussing them. It never gets old. Religion fascinates me. 

The best arguments I've encountered in favor of theism are the pragmatic arguments of William James. He is very sympathetic to the skeptical position, but still manages to muster some solid arguments for belief.

I never really "turned away" from my (Catholic) faith. I more so just explored other points of view and found them more compelling. There was a little bit of drama from my sister (who was fairly devout) when it became obvious I didn't believe. But nothing serious.

Good evening Vulcanlogician,

Thank you for sharing that story with me. I was wondering, do you still go to church at all? If so how does that go for you? What do you get out of it? Is your sister still Catholic?
[/quote]

The churches I went to growing up were evangelical. The current church doesn't call themselves any denomination, but it's basically Bible literalism. The Pastor is a Jew who became a follower of Christ.

Do my parents really believe that I'm saved under their names? I don't know, but it's something they've said. But they would first say, "why would you want to go to hell?", etc, and then after a while of me saying I wasn't afraid, my mother would give up for the moment and say, "well, you're saved under our names anyways."

I know you, as a Christian, may feel like you are free to explore and discover anything about science and other religions and things like that. I didn't feel that way though. Or maybe I was just too young to really care about that stuff yet, as I became a non-believer in my teen years. I remember in grade one, we were learning about Egyptian gods and Egyptian culture. I sat there and refused to participate because I was worried the Christian God would feel like I betrayed him and I didn't want to anger God.

[JohnJubinsky]

I made an earlier post called “Why do you hate God”, and needless to say I was quickly and rightfully corrected as to how I structured the question and the incoherent post that followed. For all that responded I thank you for your positive criticism of it and how I can better word my comments.

Now my intent in all this is that I really want to hear from you all as individuals as to why you do not believe in a God or more accurately the concept of a God. I would like to hear what we as Christians call your “testimony” or story as to why you came to the conclusion that you have.

I know there is a list a mile long as to reasons why people do not believe and that’s great, but I am more interested in hearing from the individual as to why they personally do not. What lead you to become an atheist? Were you a believer before you became an atheist? What happened to cause you to turn away from your faith? What religion or God did you follow before you became an atheist if any at all? When you turned away from God what did your friends and family say or do?

I am interested to hear the impact it had on your life. Was it a positive one or a negative one? Are you still struggling with the outcome of your choice? How does it feel to be free from such ideologies and beliefs?

I know there are multiple questions involved with this, but they all together form the story of your personal choice and I think it to be better framed in this way instead of making multiple threads to get the same answer.

I thank you all for your patience and understanding and please feel free to correct me when necessary, on how I can better understand and communicate more efficiently. Thank you for your time!

Assuming that the concept of god that we are talking about is an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being that freely desires to be worshiped one reason that I do not believe in it is because it has a self-contradictory definition. That is, nothing that is all-good would freely desire to be worshiped. A second reason is that an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good god would prevent evil and since evil is not being prevented such a god cannot exist. (To better understand this second reason you only have to realize that a very loving parent would not subject its innocent child to being raped by a psychopath no matter what the reason might be if the parent had the power to prevent.)