(June 2, 2021 at 2:19 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 9:10 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: I made an earlier post called “Why do you hate God”, and needless to say I was quickly and rightfully corrected as to how I structured the question and the incoherent post that followed. For all that responded I thank you for your positive criticism of it and how I can better word my comments.

Now my intent in all this is that I really want to hear from you all as individuals as to why you do not believe in a God or more accurately the concept of a God. I would like to hear what we as Christians call your “testimony” or story as to why you came to the conclusion that you have.

I know there is a list a mile long as to reasons why people do not believe and that’s great, but I am more interested in hearing from the individual as to why they personally do not. What lead you to become an atheist? Were you a believer before you became an atheist? What happened to cause you to turn away from your faith? What religion or God did you follow before you became an atheist if any at all? When you turned away from God what did your friends and family say or do?

I am interested to hear the impact it had on your life. Was it a positive one or a negative one? Are you still struggling with the outcome of your choice? How does it feel to be free from such ideologies and beliefs?

I know there are multiple questions involved with this, but they all together form the story of your personal choice and I think it to be better framed in this way instead of making multiple threads to get the same answer.

I thank you all for your patience and understanding and please feel free to correct me when necessary, on how I can better understand and communicate more efficiently. Thank you for your time!

Theists make several assumptions.
They assume that everyone has left a religion. I have not. I have not for one second been in a religion or had a faith to leave. I'm British and believe it or not atheism is the default here. 
There is also a thing that when theists talk about god they always assume you have a super complete idea of what god is. I don't. I have heard many different very vague descriptions of what a god is supposed to be but they all seem to be either a way of controlling the weak minded, a handy explanation for things primitive societies couldnt be bother to really look into and a collection of vague concepts like god is moral, god is love, god is law.


There is a story Richard Attenborough tells of him dining with a bishop talking about the people of vannatu who worship american airmen in the hopes of getting stuff like chocolate the bishop said "isnt silly what some people believe? " yes it is said Richard, the bishop apparently didn't pick up on his "tone"

Good Morning Downbeatplumb,

Thank you for sharing your story with us much appreciated!

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(June 2, 2021 at 1:25 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote:

(June 2, 2021 at 1:14 pm)johndoe122931 Wrote: Okay.

You think something called 'Zues' is real.

WHat are its properties?

The classical Greeks had a definite idea about what, exactly, Zues was.

How does your version differ, is at all?

Colour me very confused atm.

 


Not at work.

So, I am trying to answer your questions as best as I can without "preaching" to you so forgive me. Satan is a liar and deceiver. He can make himself appear to be something that he is not. Hence, the Greek's understanding of him. Google Michael Heiser and that might give you a better understanding of what I mean.

Hmmm.

Maybe a different tack.

Might it be correct to phrase it thus?

  "Hi! I'm johndoe122931 and I think the supernatural is also real. Not just any supernatural but ALL the supernatural."

Would that be correct?

As for your 'Zuess =  Satan'?

Uhm, you do kind of realise their descriptions/job portfolios were very different? Not to mention that Zuess has a lot better 'Pedigree' than some renamed/repurposed diety, right?

Also, Zuess has friends and family etc. Or are you just rebranding all that to fit your idea/category sort of thing? Which brings along a whole differnt level of baggage.

Cheers.

Not at work.
[/quote]
Yeah, sure, that sounds good I agree with that.

As for the whole Zeus/Satan deal. Again, like I said Satan can portray himself in any way he wants. If he wants to give himself the attributes that he does in what we know as Zeus according to the Greeks then he can. As for his family, I have no issue with that. Genesis 6 covers that issue.

(June 2, 2021 at 1:43 am)johndoe122931 Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 6:29 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Welcome to the forum, brother. I was an evangelical Christian and was very serious about my religion. I prayed multiple times a day, all throughout the day. Sometimes my parents would take my brothers and I to church 3 or 4 days a week. My acne got so bad as a teenager, and I didn't think it was fair that Yahweh was putting this on me, the good little Christian who was doing things right. One day I cursed out God and told him in a prayer that it seemed to me like he wasn't listening, so I stopped praying that day. It sort of built up over the course of a few months where my prayers to God started getting less and less respectful on my part. My parents had always told me that satan would give you the world if you traded your soul, and I was so distraught about my bad skin that I tried that out. I prayed to satan just once, but nothing happened. I'm in my 30s now and I still have the acne. It's here for life.

After my Christian de-conversion, I looked into Buddhism a bit and tried to hold onto the idea of an afterlife. That didn't last long. I started watching some atheist stuff like Dawkins and soon enough I was convinced that there was probably no afterlife. It stung to come to this realization, and it was scary, but I couldn't help but accept the logic behind it.

My parents didn't like it at all, but they pretty much accepted it. They tried to talk me out of the atheism for a number of years, which is fine with me. I don't mind those kind of discussions or get bothered by them.

Did it have a positive or negative impact on my life? Sometimes I think ignorance is bliss and it would be nice to think that you're going to paradise after you die, but I am happy I de-converted because then I was free to explore and discover without the chains.

Why do I reject the concept of a god? If god didn't need to be designed or created, then neither does our universe or any other universe, as far as I'm concerned. I don't necessarily reject the concept of a designer. We could be living in a computer game made in someone's basement. In that case, I guess you could call the designer God if you really wanted to. The idea of a supernatural god is just not an idea that adds up in my head though.

Good evening Irreligious Atheist,

Thank you for sharing your story I really appreciate it. I was curious if you still spoke with your family? Do you still have a positive relationship with them? Also, I was wondering you said that you were free to explore and discover without the chains. I can assume the chains are in reference to your belief in God, so what were you free to explore and discover now that you were not able to do while being a Christian. Thank you again for your time!

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(June 2, 2021 at 1:39 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Because the concept of a God is not a defined thing, so it is impossible to believe in something that is not defined. Like what is God? What are Gods? The question could hardly be any simpler, but the answer is strangely elusive. Do you know? I’m not sure I do.
That this question ought to be considered among the most important of all, yet most people sail right by it.

Let’s consider what makes a god. Are they all supernatural? Are they all immortal? Can all of them fly, or only some? Can they walk through walls? Can they read our thoughts? Do they know the future? Can a god have mental and physical frailties? Can a human become a god? Can a god become a human? What is it that makes someone or something a god in our eyes? What is a god?

And it seems that all Gods of today are debunked, including one of Christianity. When natural selection and evolution of man were discovered, it turned out that Adam didn't exist, and if he didn't exist there was no original sin and no need for Jesus.

So to be honest, today that question "Why do you not believe in the concept of a God?" seems on the same level as "Why do you not believe that Earth is flat?" -- there is too much evidence pointing the other way.

Good Evening Fake Messiah,

Very good questions. I really enjoy seeing these types of questions because even as a Christain these are things we must consider and ponder, or more accurately meditate on. I have with much reading and studying found the answers to the questions you seek, they are out there. Yet, as yourself being an atheist and most atheist that I have seen here I think studying scripture for you is more akin to studying the lore of your favorite book or television show, such as Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones. This is an assumption of course, yet from what I have gathered most see the Bible and God as fictional characters much like the aforementioned novels, please correct me if I am wrong in this. There is background info out there on these subjects if you are interested. Thank you for your post it is much appreciated!

Yes, I still have a positive relationship with my parents. My daughter and I even go to church with them often. I told my daughter what I believe (or better put, don't believe), and I told her that she would have to choose for herself what she believes because we all have to go on our own journey. She believed in God for a while, but now she has come to the opposite conclusion, all on her own, and I'm proud.

Both of my brothers, along with me, turned out to be non-believers. I'm sure that can't be easy for my parents to think about, but we get along just fine. Sometimes my parents say that I'm saved already because they are saved. I'm counted under their names. I don't think it quite works that way lol, but I can understand the mental gymnastics, trying to find a way to get your kids into heaven with you.

What was I free to explore? Lots of stuff. Just things I probably wouldn't have bothered looking into before because I would have been worried about angering or disappointing God. Things about evolution. Things about other religions. Posting on boards like this one, which I would argue the Bible says you're not necessarily supposed to do. "Cast not your pearls before swine" and all.

(June 2, 2021 at 12:25 pm)johndoe122931 Wrote:

(June 2, 2021 at 12:23 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Work on your "QUOTE" FUNCTION" Johndoe, I just tried to QUOTE  you but the field makes it look like part of your post.

My apologies. I will try better next time. I haven't been on a message board for quite some time still trying to get back into how it all works.

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(June 2, 2021 at 12:23 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: Diety claims. I don't think Zeus lives on top of Mount Olympus and hurls lightning bolts at people.

You beleive all diety claims......

   Though I'm guessing you're going with "I have a concept of diety 'X'. Though said concept doesn't necessarily exist/match reality", maybe?

 

Not at work.

So, let's use Zeus for example. I simply believe that Zeus is just one of the Fallen Angels masquerading itself as a god. All the regional gods of the earth are simply that. They are the fallen ones. So, yes I believe in Zeus and Krishna and Ra, etc. They are placing themselves as gods on this earth to be worshipped by humans. I truly believe them to be real entities that roam this planet since they were cast out of heaven.
[/quote]

Then you don't believe in Zeus. You're just playing semantic games. Saying you believe X only if we're willing to accept you redefining X as something it's not is equivocation.

This guy:
Exactly my point.

Juan Perez:
What's the point?

I asked a question, you completely evaded answering. Barry Sanders was very good at evading the opposition. Hence, did he train you?

I can believe in the concept of a god just like I can believe in the concept of a powerful wizard. Conceptually they are pretty much the same thing. Of course there is no evidence that either exists.

Believing in the concept of something is not the same as believing that the concept actually exists.

It does boggle my mind that people believe that something exists without any evidence of existence.
Why would I believe that my house is 1000 stories tall, when I can easily view it and confirm with others and through measurements that it's only 1 story tall ?

Why would someone believe something like that ?
A belief that a god exists is the same as believing that my house is 1000 stories tall and it grants wishes when you reach the 1000th floor.

On a second thought.. Actually, i do believe in Almighty God that could solve pretty much all of my problems



In God we trust...
Jesus can't save my problems...
But i'm sure a bunch of Benjamin Franklin can

(June 1, 2021 at 9:10 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: I know there is a list a mile long as to reasons why people do not believe and that’s great, but I am more interested in hearing from the individual as to why they personally do not. What lead you to become an atheist? Were you a believer before you became an atheist? What happened to cause you to turn away from your faith? What religion or God did you follow before you became an atheist if any at all? When you turned away from God what did your friends and family say or do?

I find agnostic atheism to be the most defensible and rational position based on what I've observed in life and after examining the arguments. I've examined many arguments for theism and (for the most part) found them to be pretty weak. But I still love discussing them. It never gets old. Religion fascinates me. 

The best arguments I've encountered in favor of theism are the pragmatic arguments of William James. He is very sympathetic to the skeptical position, but still manages to muster some solid arguments for belief.

I never really "turned away" from my (Catholic) faith. I more so just explored other points of view and found them more compelling. There was a little bit of drama from my sister (who was fairly devout) when it became obvious I didn't believe. But nothing serious.

(June 2, 2021 at 3:14 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(June 2, 2021 at 1:43 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: Good evening Irreligious Atheist,

Thank you for sharing your story I really appreciate it. I was curious if you still spoke with your family? Do you still have a positive relationship with them? Also, I was wondering you said that you were free to explore and discover without the chains. I can assume the chains are in reference to your belief in God, so what were you free to explore and discover now that you were not able to do while being a Christian. Thank you again for your time!

---

Good Evening Fake Messiah,

Very good questions. I really enjoy seeing these types of questions because even as a Christain these are things we must consider and ponder, or more accurately meditate on. I have with much reading and studying found the answers to the questions you seek, they are out there. Yet, as yourself being an atheist and most atheist that I have seen here I think studying scripture for you is more akin to studying the lore of your favorite book or television show, such as Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones. This is an assumption of course, yet from what I have gathered most see the Bible and God as fictional characters much like the aforementioned novels, please correct me if I am wrong in this. There is background info out there on these subjects if you are interested. Thank you for your post it is much appreciated!

Yes, I still have a positive relationship with my parents. My daughter and I even go to church with them often. I told my daughter what I believe (or better put, don't believe), and I told her that she would have to choose for herself what she believes because we all have to go on our own journey. She believed in God for a while, but now she has come to the opposite conclusion, all on her own, and I'm proud.

Both of my brothers, along with me, turned out to be non-believers. I'm sure that can't be easy for my parents to think about, but we get along just fine. Sometimes my parents say that I'm saved already because they are saved. I'm counted under their names. I don't think it quite works that way lol, but I can understand the mental gymnastics, trying to find a way to get your kids into heaven with you.

What was I free to explore? Lots of stuff. Just things I probably wouldn't have bothered looking into before because I would have been worried about angering or disappointing God. Things about evolution. Things about other religions. Posting on boards like this one, which I would argue the Bible says you're not necessarily supposed to do. "Cast not your pearls before swine" and all.

That's awesome to hear. I'm glad you allowed your child to make a choice as to what she wants to believe. I do the same with my children as well. I'm happy to hear to still have a decent relationship with your family and parents, that would mean a lot to me to still talk to my family. I am curious as to what denomination you were. From the things you are saying about your parents still think you are saved because they are and the fact you were not allowed to study subject matters opposite of the belief. The Biblical reference you give to Matthew 7 I personally do not believe that is what it is saying so but in any case, I am happy to hear all the positives in your life. Thank you for sharing that!

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(June 2, 2021 at 3:20 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(June 2, 2021 at 12:25 pm)johndoe122931 Wrote: My apologies. I will try better next time. I haven't been on a message board for quite some time still trying to get back into how it all works.

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You beleive all diety claims......

   Though I'm guessing you're going with "I have a concept of diety 'X'. Though said concept doesn't necessarily exist/match reality", maybe?

 

Not at work.

So, let's use Zeus for example. I simply believe that Zeus is just one of the Fallen Angels masquerading itself as a god. All the regional gods of the earth are simply that. They are the fallen ones. So, yes I believe in Zeus and Krishna and Ra, etc. They are placing themselves as gods on this earth to be worshipped by humans. I truly believe them to be real entities that roam this planet since they were cast out of heaven.

Then you don't believe in Zeus.  You're just playing semantic games.  Saying you believe X only if we're willing to accept you redefining X as something it's not  is equivocation.
[/quote]

No, not at all. I believe Zeus is a fallen angel. He doesn't have to be Satan perse I only used that name for example. And just for everybody to understand I am only telling you what I believe to be true. I am very much expecting you all to ridicule me and the like, but this is not up for debate nor argument. This is what I believe and that's that. If you want to twist and turn what I say into what makes you feel comfortable to continue the ridicule I am totally cool with that. Go ahead and tell me what I believe, but that is not going to get you any closer to really trying to understand me or my beliefs. Yet, I suspect you all really don't care what I believe and that's fine with me too.

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(June 2, 2021 at 5:35 pm)no one Wrote: This guy:
Exactly my point.

Juan Perez:
What's the point?

I asked a question, you completely evaded answering. Barry Sanders was very good at evading the opposition. Hence, did he train you?

What question?

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(June 2, 2021 at 11:32 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: I can believe in the concept of a god just like I can believe in the concept of a powerful wizard. Conceptually they are pretty much the same thing. Of course there is no evidence that either exists.

Believing in the concept of something is not the same as believing that the concept actually exists.

It does boggle my mind that people believe that something exists without any evidence of existence.
Why would I believe that my house is 1000 stories tall, when I can easily view it and confirm with others and through measurements that it's only 1 story tall ?

Why would someone believe something like that ?
A belief that a god exists is the same as believing that my house is 1000 stories tall and it grants wishes when you reach the 1000th floor.

Good evening Rahn127,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, I really appreciate it!

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(June 3, 2021 at 4:18 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 9:10 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: I know there is a list a mile long as to reasons why people do not believe and that’s great, but I am more interested in hearing from the individual as to why they personally do not. What lead you to become an atheist? Were you a believer before you became an atheist? What happened to cause you to turn away from your faith? What religion or God did you follow before you became an atheist if any at all? When you turned away from God what did your friends and family say or do?

I find agnostic atheism to be the most defensible and rational position based on what I've observed in life and after examining the arguments. I've examined many arguments for theism and (for the most part) found them to be pretty weak. But I still love discussing them. It never gets old. Religion fascinates me. 

The best arguments I've encountered in favor of theism are the pragmatic arguments of William James. He is very sympathetic to the skeptical position, but still manages to muster some solid arguments for belief.

I never really "turned away" from my (Catholic) faith. I more so just explored other points of view and found them more compelling. There was a little bit of drama from my sister (who was fairly devout) when it became obvious I didn't believe. But nothing serious.

Good evening Vulcanlogician,

Thank you for sharing that story with me. I was wondering, do you still go to church at all? If so how does that go for you? What do you get out of it? Is your sister still Catholic?

(June 3, 2021 at 4:22 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: No, not at all. I believe Zeus is a fallen angel.

...

Good evening Vulcanlogician,

Thank you for sharing that story with me. I was wondering, do you still go to church at all? If so how does that go for you? What do you get out of it? Is your sister still Catholic?

No. I don't go to church anymore. It's cool if going to church benefits others. But it is of little benefit to me.

My sister is like a "casual Catholic" now. Not really sure how to put it. She's not like she was.

***

But I'm interested in what you said about Zeus being a fallen angel. It seems like that is some kind of cobbled-together ad hoc belief.

Are you saying that you have good reason to believe that the ancient Greeks' contact with Zeus was a real event, and that you in fact know that Zeus was actually a fallen angel?

How is that belief founded on any real observation or evidence? It seems like that belief fits well into your own religious schema, so you adopted it without giving it any thought at all.

Think about it. Do you REALLY have good reason to believe that Zeus was real at all? (Let alone a fallen angel.) How anyone could "know" such a thing is beyond me. It might be fruitful for you to scrutinize that particular belief. After all, we ought to try our best to only espouse true beliefs. That means inconvenient ones too.

This guy:
Exactly my point.

Juan Perez:
What's the point?

This guy:
I asked a question, you completely evaded answering. Barry Sanders was very good at evading the opposition. Hence, did he train you?

Juan Perez:
What question?

Still ducking and weaving?