[Serious] Non-binary

[Belacqua]

Be that as it may, the comparative argument stands on the foundation of its logic.

Again, you haven't used any logic. You've just announced that things are a certain way.

In fact, the whole thread reads like a parody because your reasons are almost exactly like the reasons anti-gay people use.

"It's not natural. People aren't made that way. There's an order to the way things ought to be, and those people are outside of it. If they think they're that way they're mixed up. It's always been normal before and they don't have the right to change it." 

Are you really unaware that you're reproducing all the arguments people used to make against you? And bad people still make them?

[Foxaèr]

Doing a great deal of reaching there, regarding my position, as though your arm extends an abnormal length.

[John 6IX Breezy]

In the end, just like some guys are feminine and some women masculine, so too are there people who don't identify with their sex, yet neither do they identify with the opposite sex.

This makes sense to me in theory: Once we've detached our biological sex from our gender identity, every combination of those variables should be possible. Unfortunately, the notion of non-binary as an identity (rather than a category in which to group nonconforming identities) is so new that it isn't mentioned in any of my textbooks, and a brief search through a databases failed to produce any papers referring to it as its subject matter.

One thing I found odd, however, based on the few YouTube videos I saw (which might not be representative), was the sense of shopping around for an identity. There are videos describing how you can know if you're non-binary, for example, or telling you to experiment with different pronouns and clothing until you find the right fit. The reason why this seems odd to me is because our gender identity tends to develop in early childhood, around 3 years of age, and I believe its the same for transpeople. So this leaves me with the question—what happened in childhood? Why is non-binary something that people appear to be figuring out after puberty? (Note: I did find one video talking about childhood, but the way it was spoken about was in retrospect. It gave the impression of not knowing it back then, but knowing now looking back.)

It might be the case that their gender identity failed to develop in childhood, therefore, they are developing it in adulthood. Admittedly, this doesn't make sense to me because it seems to bypasses a "critical period" of development. However, the shopping around, the experimenting, and trying things out, is similar to what children themselves do when developing their gender identity.

[Neo-Scholastic]

In the end, just like some guys are feminine and some women masculine, so too are there people who don't identify with their sex, yet neither do they identify with the opposite sex.

This makes sense to me in theory: Once we've detached our biological sex from our gender identity, every combination of those variables should be possible.

In my world growing up and through my 20’s, the gender references were about either sex or non-English grammar. Then in the late 1990’s, the term “sexual preference” got dropped (presumably because preference implies choice) and gradually replaced by “gender identity.” In the oughts, I adopted what seemed like the consensus opinion: that gender identity and biological sex referred to different things – the former relating to self-perception, the later relating to animal physical features. Then with social media, the number of proposed gender identities seemed to explode. Then in the late 2010’s, I saw my first ginger-bread-person infographic. As a concept, gender identity now seems to include pretty much anything anyone can invent.

So you can see, just within my life, the preferred terms for talking about sex and gender has changed significantly at least 3 times. And each time, for the sake of trying to be agreeable with people who considered themselves enlightened about such things, I adopted and tried to respect the careful distinctions being made. At this point, I have given up on trying to keep up. I refuse to play all these “progressive” word games about sex and gender. They were never really about understanding; but either 1) misplaced enthusiasm for sexual self-realization or 2) making the language around human sexuality incoherent and filled with shibboleths.

My first new position is simple: fuck gender identity. It’s a meaningless category and I really don't care. In this life, no one sees you the same way you see yourself, so get over it.

My second new position is equally simple: “biological sex” is redundant. Your sex is your sex precisely because it is not contingent on what you feel or believe about it.

[The Grand Nudger]

If we want to understand something, and if we want to accurately register our disagreement with that thing we must at least commit to speaking about that thing. Not other things, which we seek to reduce the thing itself to.

It might be pleasant, for example, if gender identity were a meaningless category. And...maybe in how we personally think about things, it is..or we would contend that it is....but we must understand that this is not true of the world in which these discussions play out.

If it were an empty concept and a distraction, and there were no there there..... properly....in mere reality, that would not change the facts on the ground related to gender identity as it's expreessed..in reality, agreed? The question becomes, does anyone in this coversation think that whatever they're talking about whatever our position on it, is an actually non thing that doesn't exist with no consequecnes for taking any position or another?

Lets take a moment, if it matters to us, to dispense with all of and any thing this debate is not over, fore example. We do all believe that these people are real and are really communicating a thing which really concerns them..for starters.......yes? There will be no and can be no, after that, disagreement as to whether or not, in any sense, this is....real...right?

To that end, we can save alot...aloooot...of time, if we simply understand that even if we disagree with the following statement, it is a true expression of the position which we might argue. Gender...and sex...re not,..the same thing....or that...even if they are........ thats not what these people are talking about. Start there, start there, and see if you still have some or any objection. Can we do this, or who among us can do this, because only that group of people even could have any relevant comment, beyond that point.

I t makes no sense, none, and even cannot make sense, none, to respond to a non binary claim with anything that amounts to - but I only see two. if there are more than two or even could be, then there is nothing Yes. They know. They...do not. This is a serious thread, correct? And not a serious thread in the sense that we seek to game the rules of the board to troll the members of the board. That's not what's happening here, am I correct?

Correct me, please...if I am wrong.

[Belacqua]

This makes sense to me in theory: Once we've detached our biological sex from our gender identity, every combination of those variables should be possible.

In my world growing up and through my 20’s, the gender references were about either sex or non-English grammar. Then in the late 1990’s, the term “sexual preference” got dropped (presumably because preference implies choice) and gradually replaced by “gender identity.” In the oughts, I adopted what seemed like the consensus opinion: that gender identity and biological sex referred to different things – the former relating to self-perception, the later relating to animal physical features. Then with social media, the number of proposed gender identities seemed to explode. Then in the late 2010’s, I saw my first ginger-bread-person infographic. As a concept, gender identity now seems to include pretty much anything anyone can invent.

So you can see, just within my life, the preferred terms for talking about sex and gender has changed significantly at least 3 times. And each time, for the sake of trying to be agreeable with people who considered themselves enlightened about such things, adopted and tried to respect the careful distinctions being made. At this point, I have given up on trying to keep up. I refuse to play all these “progressive” word games about sex and gender. They were never really about understanding; but either 1) misplaced enthusiasm for sexual self-realization or 2) making the language around human sexuality incoherent and filled with shibboleths.

My first new position is simple: fuck gender identity. It’s a meaningless category and I really don't care about how other people want to see themselves.

My second new position is equally simple: “biological sex” is redundant. Your sex is your sex precisely because it is not contingent on what you feel or believe about it.

The changes have been very interesting to watch. As with gay liberation, the changes were a long time in coming but when things got started it happened fast. I'm old enough to have seen big changes. And I think this is history -- it's not going to change back.

And I think that it's more complicated than the louder voices on both sides want to acknowledge. There is a hard-wired, born-this-way component, but there is also a strong social component. And since human beings are complicated mixtures of nature and nurture, a lot of complex stuff is going on. 

One narrative wants us to think that all the various permutations of gender have always existed everywhere, and the only change is that such things can be more open now. This downplays the contingencies involved, I think. People develop according to the choices that their societies give them, and conceptualize themselves according to the concepts available to them. It's a bit (allegorically) like gene expression -- the genes exist and have their possibilities, but the effects they cause in the organism may arise from environmental factors. 

This is not to say that culturally-determined identities are fake. Because things that arise from culture can be as real as anything else. The fact that we currently think in terms of "identities," and the current range of identities widely spoken of, is certainly influencing how people think of themselves. The identities are real, but they're also in part made possible by culture. 

And since everybody's different, there's pretty much no way any of us can pass judgment on someone we read about on the Internet -- much less the whole diverse group of people. 

@John 6IX Breezy will know more about this than I do, since it's definitely a topic for serious psychological investigation. 

The sad thing to me is that some people will, by fiat, announce that an entire category of people is a priori irrational. That's just prejudice.

[tackattack]

Well said GN and if I could judo on my phone I would.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, I've got a good brain when I want to use it...and im going to use it to ensure that the way this thread turns out is either in the interests of the serious tag, or I'm banned for making dick jokes. I will be satisfied either way. I am tired of this being a thing that people argue over.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Maybe I'm not human. Doesn't make it so just because I can conceptualize myself as a werewolf.

That's an absurd comparison. Gender identity  is nothing like envisioning yourself as a whole separate species like alone one we know is fiction.

---

Doing a great deal of reaching there, regarding my position, as though your arm extends an abnormal length.

No, i'm sorry Bel is spot on this sounds actually like the kind of stuff homophobes use to say to dismiss homosexual attaction.

[John 6IX Breezy]

My first new position is simple: fuck gender identity. It’s a meaningless category and I really don't care. In this life, no one sees you the same way you see yourself, so get over it.
My second new position is equally simple: “biological sex” is redundant. Your sex is your sex precisely because it is not contingent on what you feel or believe about it.

1. I think it's important to distinguish what psychologists call gender identity from what the public talks about. Since I'm sure you're familiar with how social media currently uses it, as this sort of individuality and self-expression concept, here's a short video lecture from the psychology side (not the best audio). Notice that these are developmental stages—things you can actually observe children going through.

2. Right; biological sex is redundant, but it is a useful redundancy. People forget that you're talking about biology when you mention sex, and that you're not talking about biology when you mention gender, so the extra adjective does help emphasize that.