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If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
You couldn't be my friend, let alone my best friend. You're untermensch, abandoned by the gods, possessing no favor.

Arguing to the contrary argues your own contentions. Have fun.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 26, 2021 at 2:17 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Consider yourself lucky, that you've been given a glimpse into my psyche. Not many people have received this understanding.

Yeah, you are so amazing that you have been blessed with bipolar disorder.  God didn't give me (or Nudger) that.  Doesn't that mean that God sees us as just intrinsically better people (some sort of superior soul perhaps)?

Now, in my philosophy, even dicks have intrinsic value as human beings.
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
Its a thing to wonder about - I mean, god isn't slinging curses at other people.....shouldn't a god botherer take their misfortune to be instructive?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 26, 2021 at 11:16 am)Ahriman Wrote:
(August 26, 2021 at 10:42 am)Angrboda Wrote: Something is amiss.  How do you reconcile these two statements?
I must make something clear.......I am "bipolar", as in, I have "bipolar disorder", or at least, that's what the psychiatrist told me. I change my mind about things a lot. But honestly, I feel like the latter statement (above) is closer to what I truly believe.

Yeah, right. No, you're just a troll.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 26, 2021 at 4:18 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(August 26, 2021 at 11:16 am)Ahriman Wrote: I must make something clear.......I am "bipolar", as in, I have "bipolar disorder", or at least, that's what the psychiatrist told me. I change my mind about things a lot. But honestly, I feel like the latter statement (above) is closer to what I truly believe.

Yeah, right.  No, you're just a troll.
I am medicated. I don't care if you don't believe me.
"Imagination, life is your creation."
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 26, 2021 at 4:22 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(August 26, 2021 at 4:18 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Yeah, right.  No, you're just a troll.
I am medicated. I don't care if you don't believe me.

I don't care if you're bipolar. That isn't the reason your statements are inconsistent. But keep trolling.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 20, 2021 at 12:35 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Wouldn't any reason for anything always be contingent?  If, then.  The basis of facts supplied informing the conclusion, and absent those particular facts, some other conclusion?  Similarly, if camus is arguing anything, he's providing contingent reason, no?

So, I don't think Camus is providing a contingent reason here. I think Camus is standing back and pronouncing existence (at least human existence) absurd. And (in his day) that puts him at odds with most philosophers. I've chosen Plato to carry the torch for all of them, for obvious reasons. But it doesn't have to be Plato, of course. Any philosopher who thinks you can "discover" meaningful truths by examining the truth counts. Spinoza counts, for example. I realize you get all this; I'm just laying the foundations for my point which is:

For good reason, Camus rejects this notion. He thinks the Platonic project is a waste of time-- a waste of life. And, to Camus, that's kind of "not contingent." It's a permanent state of affairs, so why bother taking the Platonic route? That's why he invokes Sisyphus. Is it really good advice to say, "Hey Sisyphus, when examining your predicament, you should try to accurately understand what the truth is." Big waste of time. Any non-Platonist who looks at Sisyphus's ordeal knows it's a big pile of shit--- no bother fixing it, no bother understanding it. It can't be fixed. It can't be understood. It's absurd.

That's Camus's assessment of the world and of the human condition. And I think it's a good assessment.

In Camus's mind, Plato wants to say.... "No, no, no... the world makes a lot of sense. Even for you Sisyphus. Here's a fact: when you get the rock to the top of the hill, it rolls back down. Knowing that, you're closer to the truth." And, as Camus points out, that's a waste of time. I agree, no need to tell Sisyphus that. He's better off assuming the world is absurd.

But what is the world for people not in Sisyphus's predicament? That's when I tend to see Plato's approach as better. Of course, let's try to figure out what is reasonable. Let's figure out what is good and not good (and how to tell the difference)-- ie. the regular business of philosophers.

I see the world as Platonic for the most part. I'll probably carry that habit to my grave.

But I also think 2/3 of people in the world are going to be happier if they take Camus's approach, and see the world the way Camus does. For 2/3 of the people in the world --maybe more-- their predicament is more like that of Sisyphus. So why not endorse Camus? Even me, I think my predicament in life is more like Sisyphus... more in need of Camus's "comfortably pronouncing life absurd" than it is of more Platonic assessment. But, you know... old habits...

But, I suppose it's more than just habit. I think it's worthwhile to try to improve things, promote justice, etc. And even if life is absurd, such pursuits make things more meaningful, more bearable, for me. So you could say, Platonism is my way of "Sisyphus becoming happy." But I think it's more than that. It serves that purpose, yes, but I didn't assume Plato because "it makes me feel happy." It's a compelling vision. There is good reason to think that promoting good in the world makes the world better.

Maybe one day we can even help Sisyphus with his whole "rock" situation.

Worse case scenario, I'm wasting my time. But if the world is absurd anyway, who cares how I waste my time? But anything better than the worst case scenario, and there is good reason to be a Platonist. So that's where I am. I endorse Camus's attitude for the overwhelming majority (to help them be happier). But, in the final analysis, the world is better off being improved (and has enough good in it to work with) that I think the Platonic route is wisest. I like both views for different reasons.
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RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
It must be contingent on the strength of camus' arguments, if camus argues such a view into consideration, right?

Life is absurd - if you accept the arguments to that effect - but why anyone would accept any argument to any effect is a good question - if life is indeed absurd.

Similarly, any truth claim which states that finding the truth is a waste of time is, itself - and by it's own metrics....a waste of time.

Ultimately, I'm sure that we can find useful insight pretty much anywhere - I just don't find it in absurdism. I don't find the arguments compelling, and there wouldn't be any utility in my life even if I did.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: If people were 100% rational, would the world be better?
(August 30, 2021 at 4:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It must be contingent on the strength of camus' arguments, if camus argues such a view into consideration, right?  

Life is absurd - if you accept the arguments to that effect - but why anyone would accept any argument to any effect is a good question - if life is indeed absurd.  

Similarly, any truth claim which states that finding the truth is a waste of time is, itself - and by it's own metrics....a waste of time.

Ultimately, I'm sure that we can find useful insight pretty much anywhere - I just don't find it in absurdism.  I don't find the arguments compelling, and there wouldn't be any utility in my life even if I did.

There is a contradiction in Camus. Yes.

But he is an absurdist. Contradictions don't bother his position like they bother other positions. He is pointing out that logic can "lead out of itself" sometimes... and he explains this logically. So what? Logic needs to be consistent. If it isn't, that troubles the very thing at its foundations. If something troubles its own foundations, that worth pointing out. Camus isn't saying logic itself is inconsistent. He's saying that logic as a means through life is inconsistent. And thus, by logic, is dismissible in some instances. I love this point. As much as a Platonist as I am, and maybe precisely because I'm a Platonist, I see merit to this view. After all, the only way to convince a Platonist that life is absurd is to put the thesis in Platonic terms. Can you really fault an anti-Platonic theory for doing that?

When you also consider that axiomatic truths, like "happiness is important," don't depend on logic per se, you are brought to a place where your axioms compete with your logic. In that space, Camus's insights take form.
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