evolutionary psychology

[Angrboda]

And yet bees are able to find their way to the appropriate destination just by observing the appropriate Butt wiggle.

[Brian37]

And yet bees are able to find their way to the appropriate destination just by observing the appropriate Butt wiggle.

Back in the 70s, my parents  got me a subscription to "World" magazine which was the kids version of National Geographic. One of the editions had cartoon artwork in box form, depicting the way bees communicate to tell others in the hive where food was. And it literally is a dance or "butt wiggle".

[evolcon]

And yet bees are able to find their way to the appropriate destination just by observing the appropriate Butt wiggle.

Back in the 70s, my parents  got me a subscription to "World" magazine which was the kids version of National Geographic. One of the editions had cartoon artwork in box form, depicting the way bees communicate to tell others in the hive where food was. And it literally is a dance or "butt wiggle".

 Amazing. That is exactly what Bickerton writes is what gave him the idea in his book on human language.  Bees and some ants that apparently use odor for the same purpose Cant take the flowers or the carcass to the tribe, so evolve a behavior to guide the tribe to the find.  I'm guessing that we couldn't learn the butt wiggle. Maybe great minds do think alike

[The Grand Nudger]

I like that theory, I have heard it before.  It has the same possibility as the hunting hypothesis. Thanks for posting science.
  What I like about the hunting hypothesis is that hunting large game like hippopotamus or elephant  requires a large number of hunters, if we were living in large groups we had many to feed.  We could not take the hippo to the camp site, we had to go back to the camp site and inform the tribe.
I'm well aware that is a just so theory, but it's not really mine. It was first proposed by Derek Bickerton. I think maybe I like because it make us (mankind) seem badass.

I’d say hunting had more to do with the domestication of dogs than people- but….taking that hypothesis, the idea that language is what explains the human state,civilization, etc- becomes unworkable. Now we were chatting away for 290k years before we started building. Now we were neither anatomically -or- fully modern, but still talking. Which is to say that we were physically not ourselves and didn’t act like ourselves, either.

The further back we place human language in its contemporary state the less we can then claim that it was some crucial and instigating piece of recent phenomena.

As far as hunting and talking…specifically? Do you hunt? How much nattering away goes on in your average hunt? The rule I learned was simple. Absolutely no talking. Ambush. I learned the rule on the job, without any language cue. I saw my first buck, got excited, made noise….and received the evil eye and shush fingers. My grandfather pointed at the deer, pointed at his own ears, and gravely shook his head. Later, if we were in separate stands, we’d use bird calls for attention and more physical gestures for focus. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes one of us would startle an animal to get the other a shot- but any loud noise works for that. We’d whoop. If the deer ever heard anything but a gunshot, it wasn’t in English. Considering that erectus ate megafauna….hominids have been sharing habitat for 2mil years with them…we’ve probably always done it that way. The most important human innovation there is the spear lever or dart thrower. Atlatl. We know talking doesn’t account for those because people who may have never spoken and certainly never spoke to each other all arrived at it individually across time and space.

What we have going for us with regards to killing, is an understanding of leverage, ballistics, tool manufacture, future tense behavior….all of this, we’re absolutely certain, predates not only human language…but the human species. It’s great to be able to talk, too, but that isnt what made us the most successful predators on earth.

[evolcon]

I like that theory, I have heard it before.  It has the same possibility as the hunting hypothesis. Thanks for posting science.
  What I like about the hunting hypothesis is that hunting large game like hippopotamus or elephant  requires a large number of hunters, if we were living in large groups we had many to feed.  We could not take the hippo to the camp site, we had to go back to the camp site and inform the tribe.
I'm well aware that is a just so theory, but it's not really mine. It was first proposed by Derek Bickerton. I think maybe I like because it make us (mankind) seem badass.

I’d say hunting had more to do with the domestication of dogs than people- but….taking that hypothesis, the idea that language is what explains the human state,civilization, etc- becomes unworkable.  Now we were chatting away for 290k years before we started building.  Now we were neither anatomically -or- fully modern, but still talking.  Which is to say that we were physically not ourselves and didn’t act like ourselves, either.

The further back we place human language in its contemporary state the less we can then claim that it was some crucial and instigating piece of recent phenomena.

As far as hunting and talking…specifically?  Do you hunt?  How much nattering away goes on in your average hunt?  The rule I learned was simple.  Absolutely no talking.  Ambush.  I learned the rule on the job, without any language cue.  I saw my first buck, got excited, made noise….and received the evil eye and shush fingers.  My grandfather pointed at the deer, pointed at his own ears, and gravely shook his head.  Later, if we were in separate stands, we’d use bird calls for attention and more physical gestures for focus.  Don’t get me wrong, sometimes one of us would startle an animal to get the other a shot- but any loud noise works for that.  We’d whoop.  If the deer ever heard anything but a gunshot, it wasn’t in English.  Considering that erectus ate megafauna….hominids have been sharing habitat for 2mil years with them…we’ve probably always done it that way.  The most important human innovation there is the spear lever or dart thrower.  Atlatl.  We know talking doesn’t account for those because people who may have never spoken and certainly never spoke to each other all arrived at it individually across time and space.

What we have going for us with regards to killing, is an understanding of leverage, ballistics, tool manufacture, future tense behavior….all of this, we’re absolutely certain, predates not only human language…but the human species.  It’s great to be able to talk, too, but that isnt what made us the most successful predators on earth.

But the hunting must have been done by large groups, the game was large and formidable, there were only stone tool weapons, one or two strikes were probably not sufficient to bring down the game, cooperation was necessary. I'm thinking of ants taking down a grasshopper.  language certainly would make cooperation and coordination more successful.  Maybe that is why homo out competed Neanderthals.

[The Grand Nudger]

But the hunting must have been done by large groups, the game was large and formidable, there were only stone tool weapons, one or two strikes were probably not sufficient to bring down the game, cooperation was necessary. I'm thinking of ants taking down a grasshopper.  language certainly would make cooperation and coordination more successful.  Maybe that is why homo out competed Neanderthals.

Not really, there weren't many large groups of us in the first place.  Megafauna hunters were specialist tool makers.  You can make a simple wooden tool in a few hours that can take down a elephant, adding a stone point is nice.  Most of the time is spent looking for the perfect branch.  Most, though, we think would have been done in by a trap of some sort.  Pits and falls, naturally occurring and man made.  There are hunters to this day that just flat out run their prey to death.  Shooting game is sport, fishing with a hook and a line is sport. Baskets, nets, spring triggers - that was hunting, for us, for a long time. Aside from the megafauna specialists, we think that lots of us didn't do much hunting in the sense of stalking prey with a spear or a bow. These are cultures that came late to bows, if ever - or never developed a dart thrower. When they do, they appear to be designed with conflict rather than wild harvest in mind. It's actually pretty wild.

Still, hunters are, as a group, early adopters.  There's probably something like an economy of communication in hunting.  Patterns of speech or words that were shaped by their utility in that specific area.  If we conceive of a group of hunters without language coming across it (by any description), all we have to do is turn to modern sports mags to see how quickly it could spread.  Alot of what we think are our oldest words have to do with family, animals, and farming.

[Abaddon_ire]

Is it just me, or was the sudden font switch a tell for blatant copy pasta?

[evolcon]

But the hunting must have been done by large groups, the game was large and formidable, there were only stone tool weapons, one or two strikes were probably not sufficient to bring down the game, cooperation was necessary. I'm thinking of ants taking down a grasshopper.  language certainly would make cooperation and coordination more successful.  Maybe that is why homo out competed Neanderthals.

Not really, there weren't many large groups of us in the first place.  Megafauna hunters were specialist tool makers.  You can make a simple wooden tool in a few hours that can take down a elephant, adding a stone point is nice.  Most of the time is spent looking for the perfect branch.  Most, though, we think would have been done in by a trap of some sort.  Pits and falls, naturally occurring and man made.  There are hunters to this day that just flat out run their prey to death.  Shooting game is sport, fishing with a hook and a line is sport.  Baskets, nets, spring triggers - that was hunting, for us, for a long time.  Aside from the megafauna specialists, we think that lots of us didn't do much hunting in the sense of stalking prey with a spear or a bow.  These are cultures that came late to bows, if ever - or never developed a dart thrower.  When they do, they appear to be designed with conflict rather than wild harvest in mind.  It's actually pretty wild.  

Still, hunters are, as a group, early adopters.  There's probably something like an economy of communication in hunting.  Patterns of speech or words that were shaped by their utility in that specific area.  If we conceive of a group of hunters without language coming across it (by any description), all we have to do is turn to modern sports mags to see how quickly it could spread.  Alot of what we think are our oldest words have to do with family, animals, and farming.

Are you aware of the reports and the films of chimpanzee packs hunting, killing and eating monkeys, rocks and sticks as weapons, a cacophony of noise, a large and joyful
ritual.  I don't think anyone is aware of an individual or one or two chimps displaying this behavior.

[arewethereyet]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/language

Of particular note, see bolded.

language noun
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lan·​guage | \ ˈlaŋ-gwij , -wij \
Definition of language
1a: the words, their pronunciation, and the methods of combining them used and understood by a community
studied the French language
b(1): audible, articulate, meaningful sound as produced by the action of the vocal organs
(2): a systematic means of communicating ideas or feelings by the use of conventionalized signs, sounds, gestures, or marks having understood meanings
the language of mathematics
(3): the suggestion by objects, actions, or conditions of associated ideas or feelings
language in their very gesture
— William Shakespeare
(4): the means by which animals communicate
the language of birds
(5): a formal system of signs and symbols (such as FORTRAN or a calculus in logic) including rules for the formation and transformation of admissible expressions
(6): MACHINE LANGUAGE sense 1
2a: form or manner of verbal expression
specifically : STYLE
the beauty of Shakespeare's language
b: the vocabulary and phraseology belonging to an art or a department of knowledge
the language of diplomacy
medical language
c: PROFANITY
shouldn't of blamed the fellers if they'd cut loose with some language
— Ring Lardner
3: the study of language especially as a school subject
earned a grade of B in language
4: specific words especially in a law or regulation
The police were diligent in enforcing the language of the law.

[Angrboda]

Oh no! It's the revenge of the big Dics!