Marxism, what you got?

[Spongebob]

I think you're right. This forum seems to have a ton of trolls or extremely idiot level members.

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How does Marxism promise a fairy tale?  

Let's just first say that Marx was convicted that capitalism was on a brink of collapse in his lifetime.

He preached that Marxism will arise out of capitalism as a new class of people called proletarians who will know no borders between countries. That there will be no exploitation and no hierarchy anywhere in the society. He envisioned himself that he discovered some new form of man.

Furthermore, he preached that as proletarians arise they will abolish all political borders and all politics would stop existing. Then the technology from the capitalist society and labor free of all alienation would produce a socialist utopia where everyone has everything.

Communist manifesto claimed that Marx's communism could be defined in one sentence: abolition of all private property. In his "Das Kapital", Marx spelled it out: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," although he failed to explain how this would work.

And like Jesus, Marx failed to live up to his preaching since he sexually exploited a maid that worked for him and his wife by fathering a child with her. He also pretty much never worked in his life but got most of the money from his pal Friedrich Engels.

OK, I didn't realize you were referring to Marx's own vision rather than just the concept of workers owning the means of production.  The core idea, I believe, is not a fairy tale or perverse in any way, but one can take any idea to an extreme.  There are those who have promoted capitalism as utopia as well and we all know that is bunk.

[Ahriman]

I think you're right.  This forum seems to have a ton of trolls or extremely idiot level members.

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Let's just first say that Marx was convicted that capitalism was on a brink of collapse in his lifetime.

He preached that Marxism will arise out of capitalism as a new class of people called proletarians who will know no borders between countries. That there will be no exploitation and no hierarchy anywhere in the society. He envisioned himself that he discovered some new form of man.

Furthermore, he preached that as proletarians arise they will abolish all political borders and all politics would stop existing. Then the technology from the capitalist society and labor free of all alienation would produce a socialist utopia where everyone has everything.

Communist manifesto claimed that Marx's communism could be defined in one sentence: abolition of all private property. In his "Das Kapital", Marx spelled it out: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs," although he failed to explain how this would work.

And like Jesus, Marx failed to live up to his preaching since he sexually exploited a maid that worked for him and his wife by fathering a child with her. He also pretty much never worked in his life but got most of the money from his pal Friedrich Engels.

OK, I didn't realize you were referring to Marx's own vision rather than just the concept of workers owning the means of production.  The core idea, I believe, is not a fairy tale or perverse in any way, but one can take any idea to an extreme.  There are those who have promoted capitalism as utopia as well and we all know that is bunk.

Ayn Rand would like a word with you. Capitalism could be a utopia, it's just that it hasn't been handled by the proper people.......yet.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I think you're right.  This forum seems to have a ton of trolls or extremely idiot level members.

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OK, I didn't realize you were referring to Marx's own vision rather than just the concept of workers owning the means of production.  The core idea, I believe, is not a fairy tale or perverse in any way, but one can take any idea to an extreme.  There are those who have promoted capitalism as utopia as well and we all know that is bunk.

Ayn Rand would like a word with you. Capitalism could be a utopia, it's just that it hasn't been handled by the proper people.......yet.

Informed people don’t take Ayn Rand seriously.

Boru

[Ahriman]

Ayn Rand would like a word with you. Capitalism could be a utopia, it's just that it hasn't been handled by the proper people.......yet.

Informed people don’t take Ayn Rand seriously.

Boru

How come? Her philosophy is sound. In fact, it's often cited as a source of inspiration.

[The Valkyrie]

Ahemm...if you havent noticed Republicans are the working class party and Democrats are the party of the rich and the destitute.

 You been drinkin'!? Like, a lot!?

A whole brewery, it seems.

[Fake Messiah]

Here's one more thought: Capitalism is perhaps the best thing we have today, but that doesn’t mean it’s always going to be like that.

Maybe in the future people will have something else depending on the standard of living. I mean, look at the future in Star Trek TNG—they don’t have capitalism anymore because they don’t have a capital to speak of. They have replicators that make them whatever they want, so it’s something else that is can’t be named by us. And people could perhaps achieve something like that one day with nuclear fusion.

[Spongebob]

Here's one more thought: Capitalism is perhaps the best thing we have today, but that doesn’t mean it’s always going to be like that.

Maybe in the future people will have something else depending on the standard of living. I mean, look at the future in Star Trek TNG—they don’t have capitalism anymore because they don’t have a capital to speak of. They have replicators that make them whatever they want, so it’s something else that is can’t be named by us. And people could perhaps achieve something like that one day with nuclear fusion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no revolutionary.  I just enjoy debating/discussing the ins and outs of subjects like Capitalism or Marxism and I see so many Republicans misusing the term.  That's why I started the thread.  Capitalism has been a good system that allows highly motivated people to create something out of virtually nothing.  That was very difficult to do in feudalism.  Capitalism and liberal democracy are a good fit, but not perfect.

As a young one, I idealized Star Trek and its concepts, but as I grew older and more skeptical I got more annoyed at the shows because all you really see of their world is window dressing.  There has to be more to it than that.  Those ships didn't build themselves.  We never see androids.  Someone must be cleaning the toilets and I damn sure ain't buying that they chose that line of work willingly.  As the show aged, they began to introduce more conflict and controversial elements, like the Maquis story line.  And in Discovery we see even more gritty stuff.  I always wanted to see how their "utopia" worked but if they could show us that then we would probably be able to do it ourselves.

[onlinebiker]

Here's one more thought: Capitalism is perhaps the best thing we have today, but that doesn’t mean it’s always going to be like that.

Maybe in the future people will have something else depending on the standard of living. I mean, look at the future in Star Trek TNG—they don’t have capitalism anymore because they don’t have a capital to speak of. They have replicators that make them whatever they want, so it’s something else that is can’t be named by us. And people could perhaps achieve something like that one day with nuclear fusion.

But notice- especially on DS9 - capitalism still thrives....

It' s nearly a religion to the Ferengi......

And they aren' t giving away the latinum
..

[HappySkeptic]

I haven't read Marx's writings, but I have read the Communist Manifesto and other assorted Marxist-Lenninst litererature.

I enjoyed the episode of Genius of the Modern World  on Marx (on Netflix).  It made the point that no-one cared about his Das Kapital at the time, and the capitalist society was getting better, not worse at the end of his life.

[Spongebob]

It's true that capitalism was progressing, but there was still a half century or more of serious exploitation left. And given the conditions workers endured during the first IR, it should not be surprising that some people sought a better way. The surprising thing is that in many ways, a lot of the workers had a better life before the IR began. The transition was quite painful and there was little consideration for the treatment of people. Of course I can't be too harsh because I don't believe living a happy life was necessarily the top priority at the time. Our measure of life is not the same as it was 200 years ago.