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Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 1:25 am
Determinism means Sally will always choose the fork to the left even if she is educated on the option of the fork to the right.
Sally is a theist. At some point, she encounters Bobby who educates her on atheism and supposedly reveals a fork to the right. Unless the fork is already flagged as deterministic for Sally, she will always remain on the theistic path despite now being educated.
This determinism also means that god cannot exist, for theists believe contrary to the logic of determinism that everyone has a choice in the matter of believing in god's existence. But determinism informs us that the atheist will always go down the determined path of non-belief despite being educated on the concept of god.
Discuss.
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 1:33 am
(This post was last modified: October 14, 2021 at 1:37 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Actually, determinism posits that her education is a factor in her decision over left or right fork, as well as whether she believes in a god. What you're thinking of, is fatalism. Carry on.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 2:22 am
Reeducate yourself. Determinism is distinctly different than fatalism.
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 3:20 am
(October 14, 2021 at 1:25 am)Foxaire Wrote: ...
for theists believe contrary to the logic of determinism that everyone has a choice in the matter of believing in god's existence.
...
Not necessarily.
It is written. See, Islam.
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 8:47 am
(October 14, 2021 at 2:22 am)Foxaire Wrote: Reeducate yourself. Determinism is distinctly different than fatalism.
I know, and what you described..was fatalism, not determinism.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 8:48 am
As I stated, reeducate yourself.
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 8:51 am
Quote:In short, fatalism is the theory that there is some destiny that we cannot avoid, although we are able to take different paths up to this destiny. Determinism, however, is the theory that the entire path of our life is decided by earlier events and actions.
https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/10942/...-fatalism/
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 8:56 am
I suppose I should just accept that your deterministic path is to think you're right when you're not. 
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 8:56 am
Did you want your argument to be sound or not? Accept the help.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Determinism vs Education
October 14, 2021 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: October 14, 2021 at 12:08 pm by HappySkeptic.)
(October 14, 2021 at 1:25 am)Foxaire Wrote: Determinism means Sally will always choose the fork to the left even if she is educated on the option of the fork to the right.
Sally is a theist. At some point, she encounters Bobby who educates her on atheism and supposedly reveals a fork to the right. Unless the fork is already flagged as deterministic for Sally, she will always remain on the theistic path despite now being educated.
This determinism also means that god cannot exist, for theists believe contrary to the logic of determinism that everyone has a choice in the matter of believing in god's existence. But determinism informs us that the atheist will always go down the determined path of non-belief despite being educated on the concept of god.
Discuss.
As mentioned by others, your argument is not sound. You are describing fatalism.
Determinism simply says that everything is caused by prior events. Your "education" idea would then be a cause of someone "choosing" the left or right path. Of course, with determinism, there is only the illusion of choice, but that illusion can't be distinguished from actual choice, given the complex re-entrant operation of the brain.
If our fate is already written (unchangeable), then God does have a problem -- either:
- free-will exists to a degree, but God forces events toward a path, regardless of our free will (i.e. he intervenes and tricks us toward a certain direction, knowing how we will likely react). This is only a type of "soft fate", and not really unchangeable.
- free-will exists, but God sees all of time as one complete thing, and sees how things will end. This puts a huge constraint on God to either stay outside of time and space (i.e. not interact at all with creation), or to be a part of that completeness and have no choice in His actions (i.e. we have free will but He doesn't).
- free-will does not exist (determinism), but the information regarding our ultimate fate must not enter the current universe by any means (even by God), or else that fate will change -- or else, simlar to 2), God is the ultimate puppet of determinism and is forced to act in certain ways in order to be part of that determined end (like Dr. Manhattan?).
My understanding of Quantum Mechanics is that there is randomness which precludes determinism (and our fate is not written), but I am fine with determinism as well. Free will may be an illusion, but it works -- the computation system of our brain does actually make decisions that help us in survival, and will allow us to choose the left or right path.
Your OP is invalid, because natural determinism can exist and an intervening God can exist, provided an unchangeable fate does not exist. Unchangeable fate would require that God knows what God is going to do in advance, making God into a contradiction or a mindless automaton. Instead of fate, there would be "God's will". God could bring about God's will through intervention.
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