Irene of Athens: the Christian Byzantine Empress who gouged her own son's eyes.

[The Architect Of Fate]

No, but it gives the victims the right to pardon their attackers:

Lol and if they don't pardon them they get mutilated .....

[The Grand Nudger]

Anywho, back to the 7 and 800's. Ironically, had Irene been more effective (or there not been internecine war in europe), things may have gone differently for the umayyid caliphate, which was stuck in it's own war against the abbasid.

-and...ofc, had all four of these factions not been fighting themselves and each other for centuries..it just might have been a bit more difficult for the mongols to sack baghdad in 1258, bringing the golden age of islam to a screeching halt, a disaster from which it would never recover.

All of that is mere history, though, which appears to have no value or utility to whatever it is rattling around in our islamist friends head.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I don't think that big mo misunderstood his source material so much as he understood his audience very well, as did his successors.  Neither he nor they were judaizers or christianizers..and, obviously, none of them wished to grant or cede authority (let alone territory) to either tradition.

Respectfully disagree. I don’t think Mo was clever enough to grasp the subtlety of ‘an eye for an eye’. 

And Winter certainly isn’t.

Boru

[arewethereyet]

Still ignoring me I guess.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think that big mo misunderstood his source material so much as he understood his audience very well, as did his successors.  Neither he nor they were judaizers or christianizers..and, obviously, none of them wished to grant or cede authority (let alone territory) to either tradition.

Respectfully disagree. I don’t think Mo was clever enough to grasp the subtlety of ‘an eye for an eye’. 

And Winter certainly isn’t.

Boru

We had a thread a bit back where I took the time to show the differences and similarities between legal and moral codes arising from judaism and it's contemporaries in the region (specifically ur) - and what I was referring to up there pertains to that.  Short and sweet, whether a legal code focuses on people or property to the detriment of the other - and the audience mo was speaking to was firmly in the latter camp.  Adding to that was the fact that islams code is the code of a rapidly expanding totalitarian slave state.  

In that context, it's actually surprising that it didn't end up as shitty as it could have, and it's only in that context that any reform that we might today consider an improvement can genuinely be recognized.  A brutal people in a brutal environment with a brutal moral sense were being marshalled by a warlord to expand their wealth, territory, and influence. It fit their sensibilities and it was convenient to the suppression of internal discord which could derail their imperial and colonizing dreams. OFC, all of this only really applied to the little people at any rate. The idea of a warlord and his henchmen cutting off hands for theft of property immediately runs into it's own dark hilarity.

[WinterHold]

No, but it gives the victims the right to pardon their attackers:



It's not up to you, but up to the victim to pardon the thieve.

‘And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it’ pretty well torches your whole argument.

Furthermore, it reflects Mohammed’s profound misunderstanding of his source material.

Boru

When somebody throw garbage at you, you return the same garbage back, it's a sad reality but this is how humans are rigged, you can forgive them as a tactic though to gain bigger and better revenue.

Let it be a moral revenue or an economical revenue.
Or you think we are donkeys who believed the propaganda of invaders who want us to sit like setting ducks while they repeat what they did to the native Americans against us ?   It is even an English motto: "there is no free lunch".

Yet, we Muslims worship "God", so we do good deeds for free not for you, not for any man, but for God:

Sura 76, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 7 )   They [are those who] fulfill [their] vows and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread.
( 8 )   And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive,
( 9 )   [Saying], "We feed you only for the countenance of Allah. We wish not from you reward or gratitude.
( 10 )   Indeed, We fear from our Lord a Day austere and distressful."
( 11 )   So Allah will protect them from the evil of that Day and give them radiance and happiness 

---

Still ignoring me I guess.  

Why don't you ask him yourself, though?

[The Architect Of Fate]

When somebody throw garbage at you, you return the same garbage back, it's a sad reality but this is how humans are rigged, you can forgive them as a tactic though to gain bigger and better revenue.

That's a juvenile view of  morality 

Let it be a moral revenue or an economical revenue.
Or you think we are donkeys who believed the propaganda of invaders who want us to sit like setting ducks while they repeat what they did to the native

Lol your delusions are hilarious 

Americans against us ?   It is even an English motto: "there is no free lunch".

Yet, we Muslims worship "God", so we do good deeds for free not for you, not for any man, but for God:

Lol your delusions are hilarious  

[The Grand Nudger]

You don't worship a god, Winter, you worship a book written by a warlord to service his own ends and claims - long since dead. If that god came down and told you everything in the book was full of shit, you'd crucify him, like a common christian, I guess.

[WinterHold]

You don't worship a god, Winter, you worship a book written by a warlord to service his own ends and claims - long since dead.  If that god came down and told you everything in the book was full of shit, you'd crucify him, like a common christian, I guess.

Yes yes, but Christian heathens like Irene of Athens were gouging out the eyes of their own sons.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You don't worship a god, Winter, you worship a book written by a warlord to service his own ends and claims - long since dead.  If that god came down and told you everything in the book was full of shit, you'd crucify him, like a common christian, I guess.

Yes yes, but Christian heathens like Irene of Athens were gouging out the eyes of their own sons.

*sigh* ONE Byzantine empress has the eyes gouged out of ONE son, and you act like it's a big fucking deal.

Boru