[split] Ethics - parental responsibility re: children

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't owe them anything they want right now, let alone for the rest of their lives. Those little shits will take what they get and don't throw a fit or else.

I owe them food. I owe them shelter. I owe them affection. I owe them an education. I owe them a trade. Some of these debts expire - but can be extended at my leisure (and will be as long as I can manage it) into perpetuity. One day, they'll owe me some place to curl up and die - but I don't plan on sending a collections agent if they refuse - and that..will be the end of that. All debts, real and potential, satisfied.

[Ahriman]

I don't owe them anything they want right now, let alone for the rest of their lives.  Those little shits will take what they get and don't throw a fit or else.

I owe them food. I owe them shelter.  I owe them affection.  I owe them an education.  I owe them a trade.  Some of these debts expire - but can be extended at my leisure (and will be as long as I can manage it) into perpetuity.  One day, they'll owe me some place to curl up and die - but I don't plan on sending a collections agent if they refuse - and that..will be the end of that.  All debts, real and potential, satisfied.

You're just selfish.

---

An apology wouldn't do any good, obviously. But you do owe them anything they want for the rest of their lives.

Really?  

Seriously, you need to have your meds adjusted.  You are delusional.

How much of an effort do you make to provide your children with what they want/need?

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, run with that. I'm selfish. Here we have a selfish person who, despite being selfish, can rationally conceive of and accept the notion of a debt owed to their own children. It's not my opinion that, should I have a child, I must be prepared to feed it. That, should I have a child, I must be prepared to shelter it. That, should I have a child, I must be prepared to attend to their lives in a whole manner of ways until such time as they're capable of tending to that life themselves.

So, while a person may be selfish, and while a selfish person is likely to have many self serving opinions that can and do influence their views - it's not uniformly the case that our normative statements reduce to self serving opinions or pure self interest. You and I may have a disagreement about the extent of that debt, and I'll never run out of objectives facts to refer to in order to demonstrate that I do not, in mere reality, owe them a pony. I'll still get em one, ofc, because I'm selfish like that.

[arewethereyet]

I don't owe them anything they want right now, let alone for the rest of their lives.  Those little shits will take what they get and don't throw a fit or else.

I owe them food. I owe them shelter.  I owe them affection.  I owe them an education.  I owe them a trade.  Some of these debts expire - but can be extended at my leisure (and will be as long as I can manage it) into perpetuity.  One day, they'll owe me some place to curl up and die - but I don't plan on sending a collections agent if they refuse - and that..will be the end of that.  All debts, real and potential, satisfied.

You're just selfish.

---

Really?  

Seriously, you need to have your meds adjusted.  You are delusional.

How much of an effort do you make to provide your children with what they want/need?

I raised them....fed, clothed, educated them and taught them some life skills.  They are adults who are capable of earning what they want/need now.

Oldest makes more than I ever have in a year.  Son has been at the same job about 14 years and was recently promoted. He owns his own house.  Middle one figures it out and doesn't want help from ANYONE.

I'm here, and they know where to find me.

Apparently I didn't screw up too bad since the oldest is here about once a week and calls frequently between visits.  Son calls when he need advice on important stuff.  Middle one doesn't want help from ANYONE.

They are 45, 40, and nearly 35...been out of the nest a long time.

[Ahriman]

You're just selfish.

---

How much of an effort do you make to provide your children with what they want/need?

I raised them....fed, clothed, educated them and taught them some life skills.  They are adults who are capable of earning what they want/need now.

Oldest makes more than I ever have in a year.  Son has been at the same job about 14 years and was recently promoted. He owns his own house.  Middle one figures it out and doesn't want help from ANYONE.

I'm here, and they know where to find me.

Apparently I didn't screw up too bad since the oldest is here about once a week and calls frequently between visits.  Son calls when he need advice on important stuff.  Middle one doesn't want help from ANYONE.

They are 45, 40, and nearly 35...been out of the nest a long time.

Well that's nice. Really, it is. Thanks for sharing. But what about a person who is mentally ill and can't be reliably expected to provide for themselves and won't ever amount to anything because that's just not the kind of person they are? Surely it would be cruel/unfair/selfish to just throw that person to the wolves and not provide for them, right?

[arewethereyet]

I raised them....fed, clothed, educated them and taught them some life skills.  They are adults who are capable of earning what they want/need now.

Oldest makes more than I ever have in a year.  Son has been at the same job about 14 years and was recently promoted. He owns his own house.  Middle one figures it out and doesn't want help from ANYONE.

I'm here, and they know where to find me.

Apparently I didn't screw up too bad since the oldest is here about once a week and calls frequently between visits.  Son calls when he need advice on important stuff.  Middle one doesn't want help from ANYONE.

They are 45, 40, and nearly 35...been out of the nest a long time.

Well that's nice. Really, it is. Thanks for sharing. But what about a person who is mentally ill and can't be reliably expected to provide for themselves and won't ever amount to anything because that's just not the kind of person they are? Surely it would be cruel/unfair/selfish to just throw that person to the wolves and not provide for them, right?

That's a totally different topic, right?

Someone with physical or mental impairments would need care either provided by the parents or in an appropriate setting.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well that's nice. Really, it is. Thanks for sharing. But what about a person who is mentally ill and can't be reliably expected to provide for themselves and won't ever amount to anything because that's just not the kind of person they are? Surely it would be cruel/unfair/selfish to just throw that person to the wolves and not provide for them, right?

In general, their families raise funds to provide their kin with the required care when it exceeds the ability of the family members themselves.  You ask "whatabout the disabled" - but you must be aware that there is a huge industry servicing precisely that debt?

Is there no eldercare where you're at, are there no assisted living facilities?  Have you never met a person who cares for an adult member of their family? I had a great uncle who lived and died with family, having been crippled by polio. There was never any doubt that we all had an obligation to my uncle. He was a joyous and considerate person in general, and about that obligation specifically. He'd been known to try and get himself lost in the surf, had a hell of a time, scared the shit out of my grandfather a bunch. The man ended up outliving nearly every one of his siblings.

A whole bunch of selfish human beings, all working together, to satisfy an obligation that none of them apprehend as negotiable or opinion based. An obligation that survives the death of the parents and then inveighs on the agency of fellow siblings ....and then..... their children too.

Hell..there's nothing wrong with my baby brother. He's in his thirties and he's always lived with family.

[Ahriman]

Well that's nice. Really, it is. Thanks for sharing. But what about a person who is mentally ill and can't be reliably expected to provide for themselves and won't ever amount to anything because that's just not the kind of person they are? Surely it would be cruel/unfair/selfish to just throw that person to the wolves and not provide for them, right?

That's a totally different topic, right?

Someone with physical or mental impairments would need care either provided by the parents or in an appropriate setting.

Well, there really isn't an "appropriate setting", unfortunately. The only viable option is for the disabled person to sit at home and do nothing all day. But even doing nothing costs money. Money I can't provide. So my parents take care of all that stuff. They know I'm not normal, and I think my dad feels guilty that I can't live a normal life.

[arewethereyet]

WTF is normal?

Everyone's normal is different...some more than others. Middle child has addiction issues...is that normal? Yeah, probably got it from her dad. She has figured out a way to survive in spite of having issues. She's so determined to not accept help that she fights through those issues and figures it the fuck out for herself and her kids.

Nice that you feed off your dad's guilt.

[Ahriman]

WTF is normal?

Everyone's normal is different...some more than others.  Middle child has addiction issues...is that normal?  Yeah, probably got it from her dad.  She has figured out a way to survive in spite of having issues.  She's so determined to not accept help that she fights through those issues and figures it the fuck out for herself and her kids.

Nice that you feed off your dad's guilt.

Parasites breed parasites. I can only be as good as I was raised to be.