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The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
#11
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(March 16, 2022 at 9:56 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The amount of false videos and information coming out of Ukraine is astonishing:

Fact-Checking the War in Ukraine: We Analyzed These Videos and Images

Make no mistake about it, the war was an absolutely unnecessary tragedy and Putin is morally responsible for all of the carnage.  But, that's not my point here.  Rather, given all of the misinformation and disinformation coming out of Ukraine in the past several weeks, can the Gospels, written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' execution have any historical credibility to them?  After all, if individuals can promulgate disinformation in our Day even with the myriad of fact checkers (who often go disbelieved anyways), could a tiny handful of individuals have created the stories, myths and legends surrounding Jesus that would go on to evolve and morph into a major world religion?

Of course the Gospels have no historic reliability. They weren't written as history, but as hagiography. It's not unheard of to install myths into an historic setting. Simply because the Jesus narrative is placed in historical places (Judea), that no more makes it historical than the Kalevala because it takes place in recognizable Finland.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#12
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(March 16, 2022 at 10:09 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: In fairness, the Gospel of Matthew at the very least was written as propaganda. Admittedly, not by the ruling regime, but more for them. A lot of details were added to appease the Romans and absolve them of any wrongdoing in this case, and the long-standing political tensions between the people of Judea and the Romans are barely touched upon beyond the reference to how much the Jews hated the taxes and how they supposedly hated Jesus.

From the fact that they had Joseph and Mary travel to his hometown [read: that of a distant ancestor from a millennium prior] for a census [one that apparently happened… when Jesus would have been a teenager] showed them to be good Roman citizens, and the way they place blame on the Crucifixion squarely on the Jews (even though anyone who knows anything about how the Jews approached capital punishment in this age should be able to see why it doesn’t make any sense to do so) and portrays Pilate, who IRL was notorious enough for his cruelty that the Emperor Tiberius had to recall him back to Rome for being too harsh as a thoughtful man, reluctant to kill Jesus and literally washing his hands of any responsibility for doing so.

The impression that I received is that some of the jews were looking for a messiah to lead them to victory. They had a lot of hope that their god would send them one and he would help them repel the Romans via magic.
I assume that idea was around for quite a while. When did Rome invade and conquer Israel/Palestine?

I'm sure that a few people claiming to be the messiah came and had followers and they were probably killed by the Romans.
The Romans probably executed some of the priest leaders as well.
I think that at some point in time, the priests decided that it is better to cooperate with the Romans rather then have the entire jewish population killed.

The NT often urinates on the saducees, pharisees and the priestly class. I think this is evidence that there was cooperation between the priests and the Romans. This way, the new messiah gets killed and the followers get dispersed. Rome is happy. The jews survive and life goes on.

Somehow, the story turned into something about the jewish god wanting to have a child with a human and something about a unique son that must be sacrificed and the rest would be spared. Yes, the rest of the jews were spared but the NT text doesn't directly tell us this.

The Bible is full of magical numbers: 3, 7, 12, 40 and numbers derived from them appear often in the Bible.
This is an indication that the stories are fake, among many other clues that the story is fake.
So, if you think about it, when did Israel get into a war with Rome and Rome destroyed their temple. It was around 70 CE, right?

70 is another magical number for the jews. Usually, 7 seems to mean the big finale, the big curtain goes down, or completeness.
So, they positioned Jesus's birth so that it would align with the number 70.
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#13
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(March 16, 2022 at 9:56 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The amount of false videos and information coming out of Ukraine is astonishing:

Fact-Checking the War in Ukraine: We Analyzed These Videos and Images

Make no mistake about it, the war was an absolutely unnecessary tragedy and Putin is morally responsible for all of the carnage.  But, that's not my point here.  Rather, given all of the misinformation and disinformation coming out of Ukraine in the past several weeks, can the Gospels, written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' execution have any historical credibility to them?  After all, if individuals can promulgate disinformation in our Day even with the myriad of fact checkers (who often go disbelieved anyways), could a tiny handful of individuals have created the stories, myths and legends surrounding Jesus that would go on to evolve and morph into a major world religion?

How was the fact-checking back then?

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#14
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(April 6, 2022 at 11:05 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
(March 16, 2022 at 10:09 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: In fairness, the Gospel of Matthew at the very least was written as propaganda. Admittedly, not by the ruling regime, but more for them. A lot of details were added to appease the Romans and absolve them of any wrongdoing in this case, and the long-standing political tensions between the people of Judea and the Romans are barely touched upon beyond the reference to how much the Jews hated the taxes and how they supposedly hated Jesus.

From the fact that they had Joseph and Mary travel to his hometown [read: that of a distant ancestor from a millennium prior] for a census [one that apparently happened… when Jesus would have been a teenager] showed them to be good Roman citizens, and the way they place blame on the Crucifixion squarely on the Jews (even though anyone who knows anything about how the Jews approached capital punishment in this age should be able to see why it doesn’t make any sense to do so) and portrays Pilate, who IRL was notorious enough for his cruelty that the Emperor Tiberius had to recall him back to Rome for being too harsh as a thoughtful man, reluctant to kill Jesus and literally washing his hands of any responsibility for doing so.

The impression that I received is that some of the jews were looking for a messiah to lead them to victory. They had a lot of hope that their god would send them one and he would help them repel the Romans via magic.
I assume that idea was around for quite a while. When did Rome invade and conquer Israel/Palestine?

I'm sure that a few people claiming to be the messiah came and had followers and they were probably killed by the Romans.
The Romans probably executed some of the priest leaders as well.
I think that at some point in time, the priests decided that it is better to cooperate with the Romans rather then have the entire jewish population killed.

The NT often urinates on the saducees, pharisees and the priestly class. I think this is evidence that there was cooperation between the priests and the Romans. This way, the new messiah gets killed and the followers get dispersed. Rome is happy. The jews survive and life goes on.

Somehow, the story turned into something about the jewish god wanting to have a child with a human and something about a unique son that must be sacrificed and the rest would be spared. Yes, the rest of the jews were spared but the NT text doesn't directly tell us this.

The Bible is full of magical numbers: 3, 7, 12, 40 and numbers derived from them appear often in the Bible.
This is an indication that the stories are fake, among many other clues that the story is fake.
So, if you think about it, when did Israel get into a war with Rome and Rome destroyed their temple. It was around 70 CE, right?

70 is another magical number for the jews. Usually, 7 seems to mean the big finale, the big curtain goes down, or completeness.
So, they positioned Jesus's birth so that it would align with the number 70.
It’s strange when you actually look into the period and contemporary ideas of Messiah and find out how far the original idea of Messiah drifted into the idea that Christians hold dear to their hearts. To Jews, Messiah was, well, if you remember anything about Alexander the Great, he’d basically be like that except he’d be Jewish and he likely wouldn’t buttfuck his generals like Alexander did Haephestion. An itinerant rabbi is pretty far off from that ideal.

And “Son of God” didn’t mean a literal son of God. It was a phrase for a man with a special relationship with God.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#15
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(April 6, 2022 at 11:10 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(March 16, 2022 at 9:56 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The amount of false videos and information coming out of Ukraine is astonishing:

Fact-Checking the War in Ukraine: We Analyzed These Videos and Images

Make no mistake about it, the war was an absolutely unnecessary tragedy and Putin is morally responsible for all of the carnage.  But, that's not my point here.  Rather, given all of the misinformation and disinformation coming out of Ukraine in the past several weeks, can the Gospels, written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' execution have any historical credibility to them?  After all, if individuals can promulgate disinformation in our Day even with the myriad of fact checkers (who often go disbelieved anyways), could a tiny handful of individuals have created the stories, myths and legends surrounding Jesus that would go on to evolve and morph into a major world religion?

How was the fact-checking back then?

Practically nonexistent. The father of history, Herodotus, relates that he wrote what others told him, hence, his stories of giant gold digging ants.
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#16
RE: The Gospels and the war in Ukraine.
(April 7, 2022 at 6:45 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(April 6, 2022 at 11:10 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: How was the fact-checking back then?

Practically nonexistent.  The father of history, Herodotus, relates that he wrote what others told him, hence, his stories of giant gold digging ants.

It was a rhetorical question, but yeah.

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