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RE: Job
June 14, 2022 at 6:08 am
I think that if Job were to make a comment from heaven he would probably agree that if his temporary suffering, while he was here on earth, could inspire thousands than for him it would be worth it.
What doesn't kill you can make you stronger, it just depends on how you handle it.
Our book is meant to inspire martyrs, not your typical country club coffee and donuts crowd that our current churches thrive on.
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RE: Job
June 14, 2022 at 6:54 am
'Our book'?
Got a mouse in your pocket?
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RE: Job
June 14, 2022 at 7:36 am
(This post was last modified: June 14, 2022 at 7:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It's interesting that you, like the authors, put trash like that in poor jobs mouth. If it were a real human being, and not a one dimensional cutout, maybe you'd see how sick and macabre your appraisal here really is? Course, that's neither here nor there. The real trouble, is that you've wholly missed the point of job, by your comments. You see, Job didn't get any stronger....he was already The Most Faithful Man In The World...and he was never going to die. That was established at the outset of the narrative when the two gods had their chat and made a bet.
How inspiring can the example be, even to you as a potential martyr, if you can't remember the details?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Job
June 14, 2022 at 8:01 am
(June 14, 2022 at 6:08 am)h311inac311 Wrote: I think that if Job were to make a comment from heaven he would probably agree that if his temporary suffering, while he was here on earth, could inspire thousands than for him it would be worth it.
I have not yey heard anyone saying that the killing of their children and living with that loss was worth it. Did you?
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Job
June 16, 2022 at 7:38 pm
You guys are genuinely convinced that if Job were here he would side with atheists and God accusers?
Perhaps you are the ones who haven't read deeply enough. For if Job were merely to perish as the un-proven, yet most faithful man on earth then who would record his tale? Much less defend it in court.
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RE: Job
June 16, 2022 at 7:56 pm
Quote:You guys are genuinely convinced that if Job were here he would side with atheists and God accusers?
No more so than an abused wife with Stockholm syndrome would side against their abusive husband.
Quote:Perhaps you are the ones who haven't read deeply enough. For if Job were merely to perish as the un-proven, yet most faithful man on earth then who would record his tale? Much less defend it in court.
Nope, we read plenty deep enough. The idea Job needed to prove himself to a supposedly all-knowing being is on its own absurd ...... 
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RE: Job
June 16, 2022 at 8:08 pm
If Job shows up then maybe we will talk. He should maybe bring Jebus as his plus one.
Eyeore and Pooh may as well show up too.
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
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RE: Job
June 17, 2022 at 1:36 am
(This post was last modified: June 17, 2022 at 1:59 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 16, 2022 at 7:38 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: You guys are genuinely convinced that if Job were here he would side with atheists and God accusers?
Perhaps you are the ones who haven't read deeply enough. For if Job were merely to perish as the un-proven, yet most faithful man on earth then who would record his tale? Much less defend it in court.
God would know. In fact..god did know. Jobs family was killed for farce. Still, if job were a real boy..which he certainly wasn't..then he probably wouldn't side with "atheists and gods accusers" at all. Or any other moral person as you and I describe it. The narrator of that story wasn't like us in that regard..not you, not me. Sure, he might have hated the fuck for it, but he'd have kept his mouth shut about it.
If you're serious about your religion...and about magic book, you should take the time to learn it. If the contents are so important, then you should try not to take contemporary moral liberties when you consider it. The god you worship is supposed to be terrifying. It's supposed to do inexplicably fucked up and bloody shit. You don't interrupt it when it's skullfucking you. You let it finish. The kind of god people stuck on the crossroads of great warring empires worship, on the hope that it might be even more terrible to someone else. -and, I know, I know. Version two, jesus meek and mild. Notice how the people that came up with your god didn't go for that shit, and are still with us? Still not believing in a romanized nueter of their wargod?
At any rate, familiarizing yourself with the text as it is, rather than whatever cliff notes your heretical sect holds to, could give you incredible insight. Then, you might be able to talk about biblical stories in a way that resonates with a wider audience, even atheists. It's the difference between a timeless coming of age tale..and some bullshit about a hussy who ate the wrong fruit because a dragon told her to. Between a god-sanctioned multiple homicide wrecking a home, and wisdom literature. Just like there was never any adam or eve, there was never a job..and that wasn't even a problem for the authors. They weren't writing history.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Job
June 17, 2022 at 5:42 pm
(June 14, 2022 at 6:08 am)h311inac311 Wrote: I think that if Job were to make a comment from heaven he would probably agree that if his temporary suffering, while he was here on earth, could inspire thousands than for him it would be worth it.
What doesn't kill you can make you stronger, it just depends on how you handle it.
Our book is meant to inspire martyrs, not your typical country club coffee and donuts crowd that our current churches thrive on.
What about his family's permanent suffering? The worst evil you can do is to make others suffer all for your own personal amusement.
Quote:I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I'm sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that's when I first learned about evil. It is built in to the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior
Havelock Vetinari was speaking about your god there.
Urbs Antiqua Fuit Studiisque Asperrima Belli
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RE: Job
June 18, 2022 at 10:14 am
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2022 at 10:16 am by HappySkeptic.)
(June 17, 2022 at 1:36 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Just like there was never any adam or eve, there was never a job..and that wasn't even a problem for the authors. They weren't writing history.
Exactly this.
Job is a piece of moral philosophy. It is written as such. The idea that it was historical is ridiculous, although the story in some form could have been quite old.
There never was a Job. Job is a stand-in for every good person who experiences bad stuff. His friends are literary devices for considering the various answers to "why bad things happen to good people".
It is interesting that the author rejects all the standard explanations such as "It is for the best" or "You must have sinned". The answer God gives at the end is "I'm frick'n God, and if I want to do shit, I"ll do it, so just shut up and take it".
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