Seeking meaningful advice from atheists

[Fake Messiah]

We're seeing this now in Hollywood as it is endlessly remaking and retelling old stories which resonated with millions across the world. Only now these stories have mary-sue type women who are handed everything (Mulan, Rey) because Hollywood is trying to appeal to a new kind of feminist virtue which insists that women are special for existing, rather than that they are special for overcoming difficulty (or sexism in the case of Mulan). The result is bad stories which teach no good morals, a fireworks show at best that is here today and forgotten tomorrow.

Still, they give much better moral stories about women than the Bible.

[h311inac311]

We're seeing this now in Hollywood as it is endlessly remaking and retelling old stories which resonated with millions across the world. Only now these stories have mary-sue type women who are handed everything (Mulan, Rey) because Hollywood is trying to appeal to a new kind of feminist virtue which insists that women are special for existing, rather than that they are special for overcoming difficulty (or sexism in the case of Mulan). The result is bad stories which teach no good morals, a fireworks show at best that is here today and forgotten tomorrow.

You hate fictional women as well as real women. Got it.

 
Do you consider yourself to be an intellectual? Because this is the response of someone who doesn't want to have an honest conversation. Maybe you should screencap my post for tumblr, I think you'll find a lot of people who mindlessly agree with you over there.

How does handing women everything (including magic power) teach them any good morals? How does making Rey special for no reason help real world women overcome conflict? You know how I am about slander Mr. Boru, I don't take kindly to anti-intellectual accusations which seek to use hateful-speech as a replacement for a genuine discussion. And if you're going to make an accusation of me then you should at least have the courage to defend it.

Perhaps you are insisting that women should be handed everything because they were born with a pair of X chromosomes? Is this how you would raise your daughters, and how well behaved do you think they would be? Would they show any amount of respect for those less fortunate? Would they ever learn compassion or understanding? Would you even bother to teach your daughters moral values?

If you are an intellectual then I'm sure you'll agree with me that Ad-Hominin is no substitute for logic or reason.

[Fake Messiah]

How does handing women everything (including magic power) teach them any good morals? How does making Rey special for no reason help real world women overcome conflict? 

Star Wars movies are just entertainment. They are not supposed to teach anyone morals or how to live in the real world, but to entertain people.

[Belacqua]

Evil only knows how to kill steal and destroy that which righteousness creates. We're seeing this now in Hollywood as it is endlessly remaking and retelling old stories which resonated with millions across the world. Only now these stories have mary-sue type women who are handed everything (Mulan, Rey) because Hollywood is trying to appeal to a new kind of feminist virtue which insists that women are special for existing, rather than that they are special for overcoming difficulty (or sexism in the case of Mulan). The result is bad stories which teach no good morals, a fireworks show at best that is here today and forgotten tomorrow.

I haven't seen Mulan, but I did see one of the Star Wars movies with Rey in it. I've read enough on Twitter to know what a Mary Sue is. 

But I don't think we can blame bad storytelling and unoriginal plots on women's rights. Both of the movies you name are Disney products, and Disney makes every choice it makes for one and only one reason: money. They have calculated that selling a certain image to a certain set of consumers will be profitable. Parents who pay money for those DVDs, which they put on to keep their kids quiet, feel good about themselves if they think their consumer products are up to date morally. Anti-sexist, pro-woman, etc. 

The point is that these are consumer products, and the anti-sexist messages they teach (or pretend to teach) are calculated to ship product. If you want honest morality, clear thinking, and truly good morals, you have to read good stuff -- and that's not going to be calculated for greatest sales. 

Probably you know the story about Edward Bernays, who was Freud's nephew. He moved to the US and became the first great ad man. One of his main coups was to persuade women who were working for the right to vote that cigarettes were a symbol of women's freedom. By connecting the two totally unrelated issues -- smoking and voting -- he opened up the market to millions of new consumers. 

That's America. Money is so deeply involved in everything, that even the very best moral issues are compromised. 

Better rights for women, gay people, trans people, etc., is a great cause, and every improvement is a wonderful step in the right direction. But it's not going to be pure, because nothing that gets widespread retail distribution is pure.

[Jehanne]

How does handing women everything (including magic power) teach them any good morals? How does making Rey special for no reason help real world women overcome conflict? 

Star Wars movies are just entertainment. They are not supposed to teach anyone morals or how to live in the real world, but to entertain people.

Stars Wars is a modern retelling of the Arthurian legends, including, Camelot, Guinevere and Excalibur; Lucas decided to forgo the traditional, adulterous love triangle.

[Angrboda]

This also overlooks the fact that evil reigned in Hollywood in the old days as well, so you're arguing that something has changed when it really hasn't.

[brewer]

I didn't see 'mary sue' in the incel dictionary. I'll have to add that.

Thanks for outing yourself.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You hate fictional women as well as real women. Got it.

 
Do you consider yourself to be an intellectual? Because this is the response of someone who doesn't want to have an honest conversation. Maybe you should screencap my post for tumblr, I think you'll find a lot of people who mindlessly agree with you over there.

How does handing women everything (including magic power) teach them any good morals? How does making Rey special for no reason help real world women overcome conflict? You know how I am about slander Mr. Boru, I don't take kindly to anti-intellectual accusations which seek to use hateful-speech as a replacement for a genuine discussion. And if you're going to make an accusation of me then you should at least have the courage to defend it.

Perhaps you are insisting that women should be handed everything because they were born with a pair of X chromosomes? Is this how you would raise your daughters, and how well behaved do you think they would be? Would they show any amount of respect for those less fortunate? Would they ever learn compassion or understanding? Would you even bother to teach your daughters moral values?

If you are an intellectual then I'm sure you'll agree with me that Ad-Hominin is no substitute for logic or reason.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I’m interested in having a ‘genuine discussion’ with you. Sorry if I did anything to mislead you on that score.

And it’s ‘ad hominem’, a fallacy of which I am not guilty (well, not in THIS thread, at least). This is how it works:

Ad hominem: Your positions are wrong because you’re a terrible person.

Not ad hominem: Your positions are wrong on their own merits.

See?

Boru

[Belacqua]

[...] We're seeing this now in Hollywood as it is endlessly remaking and retelling old stories which resonated with millions across the world. Only now these stories have mary-sue type women who are handed everything (Mulan, Rey) because Hollywood is trying to appeal to a new kind of feminist virtue [...]

I was thinking some more about the Mary Sues. It does show an interesting development in popular media, and you're right that it expresses a change in values. 

It occurs to me that a lot of pop media is intended as wish fulfillment. We identify with a character who always wins, for whom all desires are fulfilled and all difficulties overcome. This character has the coolest stuff and the most attractive demeanor. 

For men, the paradigm is probably James Bond. Minimal backstory, good at everything, sharpest clothes, can operate any and every vehicle without training, more effective at using violence than anyone else. He gets any woman he wants but is never saddled with the negotiations required for a long term relationship. He has the coolest watch, the coolest car, etc. But note that this only includes guy stuff -- it never says he has a beautiful apartment with interiors done by a professional designer, because that would be girly. 

Then there are a thousand variations on this, with less famous characters in books and movies serving the same function. You can choose the version that appeals to you. You've got your American tough guys, your military tough guys, your rich tough guys, your tough guys living on a house boat. Etc. ad nauseam. 

Until recently the women's version of this was romance novels. Women were assumed to want different things, and these books were designed as fantasy wish fulfillment of those desires. 

Now women's desires are assumed to be, often, similar to men's. The ability to solve problems through violence, the ability to say cool one-liners to demonstrate their superior coolness. The ability to be good at every kind of technical or skillful activity, without training. 

We notice the Mary Sues as unrealistic because it's new for women, but it's really just inviting women into the same old boring fantasy that men have been buying for a very long time.

[h311inac311]

I haven't seen Mulan, but I did see one of the Star Wars movies with Rey in it. I've read enough on Twitter to know what a Mary Sue is. 

But I don't think we can blame bad storytelling and unoriginal plots on women's rights. Both of the movies you name are Disney products, and Disney makes every choice it makes for one and only one reason: money. They have calculated that selling a certain image to a certain set of consumers will be profitable. Parents who pay money for those DVDs, which they put on to keep their kids quiet, feel good about themselves if they think their consumer products are up to date morally. Anti-sexist, pro-woman, etc. 

The point is that these are consumer products, and the anti-sexist messages they teach (or pretend to teach) are calculated to ship product. If you want honest morality, clear thinking, and truly good morals, you have to read good stuff -- and that's not going to be calculated for greatest sales. 

Probably you know the story about Edward Bernays, who was Freud's nephew. He moved to the US and became the first great ad man. One of his main coups was to persuade women who were working for the right to vote that cigarettes were a symbol of women's freedom. By connecting the two totally unrelated issues -- smoking and voting -- he opened up the market to millions of new consumers. 

That's America. Money is so deeply involved in everything, that even the very best moral issues are compromised. 

Better rights for women, gay people, trans people, etc., is a great cause, and every improvement is a wonderful step in the right direction. But it's not going to be pure, because nothing that gets widespread retail distribution is pure.

I appreciate your analysis and yes I do believe that these choices are based primarily on money, however I am fairly convinced that the choices that Disney made regarding the character of Rey are only going to work on people in the short term. I mean will parents really be as excited to show their kids episode 7-9 as they are to introduce them to 4-6? I mean, the original trilogy is the main basis upon which the entire Star Wars franchise was built upon. They are still endlessly revisit able classics to this day and because of this they have inspired multiple generations to want to see more and expand the Star Wars universe. 

So some soccer mom buys the mar Rey sue trilogy, pops it in for her kids and then what? Do the kids want to be like the characters? Do they buy the action figures? Are they inspired by these stories on any level? Do they want to buy comics or videogames based on the expanded universe?

Like I said I think that these choices pay off only in the short term, in the long term people will move on past most of these new Star Wars films and I'm pretty sure we will just go back to the original trilogy and perhaps even the prequels when we want to re-experience George Luca's storytelling.

Also I don't think that Rey advances "women's rights" or anything virtuous like that. She's just there being a woman and being treated like the most special person in the galaxy simply because the writers gave her lots of magic points. I can't see how that would inspire young girls to aspire to be anything other than a spoiled and self-centered person. 

Mulan was originally an excellent example of a girl who had to actually deal with sexism in order to fight on her father's behalf. She proved that even though she wasn't as strong as the other men she was smarter. She was able to climb the wooden pole and retrieve the arrow on top, she was also able to defeat a large portion of the hun army by using a rocket to cause an avalanche. And, by the end of the story she brought a tremendous amount of respect and honor to her family and country without being a typical pretty girl who is just there to wear makeup and be polite for the men in her society.

I find the originally story of Mulan to be both inspiring and feminist but in a positive way. At no point does Mulan receive special treatment or special magic powers to solve her problems for her. On the contrary, the fact that she is a girl means she needs to put forth extra effort to hide her gender from the other soldiers so she consistently needed to be clever in order to avoid detection.