A knockdown prophecy

[The Grand Nudger]

An example of why our other muslim friend thinks that set of fables damages the credibility of the religion of magic book.  

Winter is a quranist. He can easily learn how silly quranism is by searching the responses in the web. It's bad enough that he got the number of prayers wrong. I lived for two decades in a Muslim country and I never met nor heard of anyone who prays three times a day. The guy really is an extreme case.

Quranism aside, the hadith simply got a fact right, I don't see how that damages the credibility of anything.

-just as magic book and hadith are <snip>  Like your attempt to parody electronics manufacturing..I think you've succeeded ...just not in what you set out to do.  Furthermore, I'd posit that every scientific miracle nuts true faith is found in science, and not <snip>.  After all, we're looking at science as the truthmaker for your religious claims, and not the other way round.

That's simply not true, because science changes and religious claims don't. There is however a subset of scientific facts that is unlikely to ever change, like the fact that the Earth is round, or the fact that the luminferous aether doesn't exist, or the fact that we have 360 joints.

 I want you to consider how silly these two statements are in direct comparison to each other.  You tell us that religious claims never change directly after you editorialize on a person who follows a changing religious claim.  Consider it, but lets not dwell.  

What I'm far more interested in is whether or not, were there one more or less joint in the human body, you would abandon your faith.

We already know that a person making this claim, and predating hadith, and that claim being accurate, does not seem to suggest to you that their religions are true.  If you also don't believe that making the claim and that claim being inaccurate would suggest that your religion is false - then the whole point of your own thread, this fundamentally pagan exercise in scientific miracles nuttery you asked us to engage in...has no probative or truth making value - even to you.

[The Architect Of Fate]

There is nothing that necessitates there being a first human and any definition you are going to daydream up is arbitrary. There isn't a clean-cut point where we started being human.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Science acknowledges when it's wrong and changes with evidence. Religion pretends it's always right and invents excuses to prop up its dogma. Engaging with apologetics is like playing an infinite game of wack-a-mole where there is no score and you don't win anything.

[Angrboda]

It's not enough for you to find some quote somewhere about joints with the number 360, you have to explain why the Islamic prophet always takes the correct bits and leaves out the scientific mistakes. And aside from trained physicians, almost all people will get the wrong count, some joints are very tricky to even notice, given that they have different sizes.

There are many possible explanations for any given falsehood. Yours seems to stem from a deep-seated belief fucking with a second-rate brain.

[GUBU]

Oh wow, what great magic it is that one of the qu'ran's 9th century authors could read Greek.

That was a hadith, which isn't part of the Qur'an. Sounds like you don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about.

It's nice the writer was able to accurately count joints, but that's early science, not prophecy. The writer wasn't ever the first to arrive at an accurate count:

Lü Pu-wei's Springs and Autumns (Lü shih ch'un-ch'iu) - of (ca. 239 BC)

Human beings have 360 joints, nine body openings, and five yin and six yang systems of function. In the flesh tightness is desirable; in the blood vessels (hsueh-mo free flow is desirable; in the sinews and bones solidity is desirable; in the operations of the heart and mind harmony is desirable; in the essential ch'i regular motion is desirable. When [these desiderata] are realized, illness has nowhere to abide, and there is nothing from which pathology can develop. When illness lasts and pathology develops, it is because the essential ch'i has become static.

The paragraph you quoted above is a heap of crap, scientifically speaking, aside from the 360 joints part. That's the crucial difference between what one finds in ancient eastern religions and Islam. The former is 99% factual errors and 1% accurate facts, while the latter is 100% accurate facts, even if they're not what atheists expect of a prophecy: some verbatim statement of some recent law of physics for example.

It's not enough for you to find some quote somewhere about joints with the number 360, you have to explain why the Islamic prophet always takes the correct bits and leaves out the scientific mistakes. And aside from trained physicians, almost all people will get the wrong count, some joints are very tricky to even notice, given that they have different sizes.

What you believe that it was a different set of power hungry maniacs who wrote the hadiths to those who wrote the qu'ran. Anyway my point still stands, copying Greek medical texts does not equal prophesy.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

How to determine the number of joints in a human body:

-Decide what qualifies as a ‘joint’.

-Locate a human test subject.

-Disassemble the test subject.

-Count.

(prophecy not required)

Boru

[R00tKiT]

Have you ever considered that someone.....sit down now, im gonna debunk Islam as you believe in it, right now!......

OH WOOOOW, LET ME PUT ON AND TIGHTEN MY SEATBELT.

.....has dissected a human body (or two) by the 7th century?*

Okay, seatbelt off.

So, according to your messed up logic, if some random guy dissects a human body and tries to count joints, it's guaranteed that he'll get 360 ?

Okay, probably not. What about a really motivated and intelligent guy trying to count joints in the dissected body ? Still not enough, as some joints are tricky to even notice because, as I said, they're not of the same size.

So we really need a trained physician with background knowledge about human anatomy to do the work. The thing is, even in this case, we still get conflicting accounts (and don't get me wrong, if one adopts a non standard definition of what a joint means, they won't get 360, ofc) about how many joints there are, so we need many trained physicians to do the counting and then choose the count with the most frequent occurence, or maybe the average count, which is 360, according to medical literature.

But clearly, there wasn't enough background knowledge available to even approach the correct figures. The fact that some random Buddhist tradition cites the info doesn't solve the issue for the atheist, because the same buddhist tradition reports a lot of errors that don't appear in the hadith. So, good luck explaining why this is the case.

But see, thats the difference between you and a clever apologist: A clever apologist would have claimed "Muslim medicine was so advanced back then, they already knew about 360 joints. Therefore Allah!".

I think you and I don't have the same definition of clever, or of apologist.

Of course you will also fail to see that the fact of those 360 joints are not the problem, they are actually an irrelevancy. The problem is your underlying methodology to cross check your beliefs with reality. You have a belief and are looking for confirmation. Its guaranteed to lead you to false conclusions. Thank you for this very clear demontration of confirmation bias.

Having an intuition about some fact and then backpedalling to support that fact is something that happens routinely in science.

Let's take an example from math, if one doesn't know the famous formula for calculating the sum 1+2+3+...+n, then they can try to "guess" it by taking small values of n to see what happens, and then prove their guess using mathematical induction.

Similarly, one can see that some religious claims are more plausible than others, or explain some set of data better than other competing claims... they then go and look for the details to confirm their initial intuition, there really is no problem with that, as long as they can rationally assess the available evidence.

[Jehanne]

For the last time, we are NOT born ("created") with 360 joints!

[Deesse23]

Have you ever considered that someone.....sit down now, im gonna debunk Islam as you believe in it, right now!......

OH WOOOOW, LET ME PUT ON AND TIGHTEN MY SEATBELT.

.....has dissected a human body (or two) by the 7th century?*

Okay, seatbelt off.

So, according to your messed up logic, if some random guy dissects a human body and tries to count joints, it's guaranteed that he'll get 360 ?

Nope, no messed up logic. You may want to take some reading classes? I ddint claim it was guaranteed something, you claimed it was guaranteed prophecy, did ya? I was only offering one other explanation than "prophecy". You claimed prophecy. Now, hush, prove it wasnt some random (greek or chinese) dude counting joints on a dead body.
GO

Of course you will also fail to see that the fact of those 360 joints are not the problem, they are actually an irrelevancy. The problem is your underlying methodology to cross check your beliefs with reality. You have a belief and are looking for confirmation. Its guaranteed to lead you to false conclusions. Thank you for this very clear demontration of confirmation bias.

Having an intuition about some fact and then backpedalling to support that fact is something that happens routinely in science.

Stop evading. Were you engaged in confirmation bias? Yes or no?
The correct answer is: Yes you were desperately looking to confirm your already established belief.

Let's take an example from math,

No, Mr. Bullshit Artist, lets not.
Lets address my concerns, particularly about confirmation bias.
Lets also try to be a decent and honest debater by admitting having misrepresented my position (aka: me claiming a dude dissecting another dude MUST come to the conclusion of "360".

[The Grand Nudger]

Having an intuition about some fact and then backpedalling to support that fact is something that happens routinely in science.

Is this you acknowledging that you backpedal when your intuitions are shown to be wrong, as they have been in this thread, with a side of "but other people do too!".....?

Similarly, one can see that some religious claims are more plausible than others, or explain some set of data better than other competing claims... they then go and look for the details to confirm their initial intuition, there really is no problem with that, as long as they can rationally assess the available evidence.

Maybe, but not this about a knockdown prophecy, since it seems like it's a - not prophecy™ when the other guy does it and does it earlier, b - implausible to you that others getting it right makes their religions true, and c..inconsequential to the truth of your own religion if you got it wrong.

Get back to me when you're rationally assessing anything.