Women-Life-Freedom Movement in Iran

[Leonardo17]

Here are seven vices that are banned by Iran’s morality police:
1- Uncovered hair
2- Boy and girls (children) playing together (with squirt guns for instance)
3- Dancing classes in kindergarten
4- Ankle revealing clothes (for women of course)
5- All type of clothing that make you look nice and attractive or a little unusual (for both sexes I believe)
6- Skiing (Female skiers need a male relative if they want to ski)
7- Barbie dolls (truly)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/7-called-vice...00003.html

I am no longer going to debate the religious or even political aspects of these policies. Still in psychiatric terms this is defined as obsessive-compulsive disorder. And in Freudian terms, it is obvious that whoever person designed these rules, that person has to be a “he” and he has some serious issues that is related to his very own sexual identity. In psychology there are some cases of people having disorders related to their toilet education in their early childhood. These guys have a clear sexual identity issue. I mean ankles, who cares about somebodies ankles? This is definitely a case of sexual obsession and most probably perversion too. I think it’s something like the case of those catholic priests with sexual misconduct. Just by looking at this article I can say that at least 1/3 of the members of the Iranian government are suffering from a sexual perversion mental illness of some sort. (In which book ever written on any religion did they pick ankles? Who cares about ankles?)

[Ahriman]

^^^ It's just a different culture, nothing mentally ill about it.

[Belacqua]

in psychiatric terms this is defined as obsessive-compulsive disorder. 

No, I don't think that's right. 

In America it's considered unacceptable for a naked woman to walk through Walmart. Is this rule based on obsessive-compulsive disorder? 

Just because you don't approve of another culture's customs doesn't mean you can diagnose them as obsessive-compulsive. 

I mean ankles, who cares about somebodies ankles?

People in Britain did for a long time. Just because you find a body part unstimulating doesn't mean you get to choose for the whole world. 

In Japan, women's breasts were not considered sexually stimulating for a long time. 18th and 19th century Japanese porn (intended to stimulate) usually doesn't show them, though it's OK to show them in pictures of nursing mothers, female swimmers, etc. (As far as I can tell, boobs became stimulating to Japanese people when they started wearing western fashions, which emphasize the bust. Kimono flatten the bust and don't offer it as a stimulant.)

Does the fact that the US outlaws toplessness in public places prove that the US is mentally ill?

This is definitely a case of sexual obsession and most probably perversion too. [...] Just by looking at this article I can say that at least 1/3 of the members of the Iranian government are suffering from a sexual perversion mental illness of some sort.

Nope. Don't buy it. 

Just say you disapprove. Just say you find the modern customs of your own culture to be better than theirs, and wish women could have more choice. But don't pretend to diagnose it.

[Ahriman]

And arguably healthier too.

[Leonardo17]

Ahriman: I don’t think this is healthy. If it is cultural, it’s a culture that’s completely unhealthy. See ın the Movie “American Pie” you have one of the boy who is doing it with his mother’s cake for instance. Here, in Ankara, I’ve had a female friend who was relating me how she, while travelling in an omnibus had a young man staring at her uncovered arm. She was asking “Has this man ever seen an arm already? Why could he be staring at my arm?”

  Also, in very ancient times, that is in the 70’s when even printed magazines were not really circulating among the younger generations, as I am hearing there were cases of young people, using some vegetables, or in villages, even animals for sexual satisfaction purpose.
   So yes, maybe it’s culture. But if it’s culture than there has to be problem with that culture. I mean in the article it says ankles. Who cares about ankles?

Belaqua:

“No, I don't think that's right.

In America it's considered unacceptable for a naked woman to walk through Walmart. Is this rule based on obsessive-compulsive disorder?

Just because you don't approve of another culture's customs doesn't mean you can diagnose them as obsessive-compulsive. “
America is not Africa. It doesn’t have a tropical climate either (except for Hawaii perhaps). So there are times in the year when everybody has to get covered up anyway. The problem is, in a tropical climate nobody would care after a while. But today, when you enter a shopping mall naked or half naked people will stare at you. I don’t know if the punishment is very severe, but I wouldn’t do that. Why would you do that?

People in Britain did for a long time. Just because you find a body part unstimulating doesn't mean you get to choose for the whole world.

In Japan, women's breasts were not considered sexually stimulating for a long time. 18th and 19th century Japanese porn (intended to stimulate) usually doesn't show them, though it's OK to show them in pictures of nursing mothers, female swimmers, etc. (As far as I can tell, boobs became stimulating to Japanese people when they started wearing western fashions, which emphasize the bust. Kimono flatten the bust and don't offer it as a stimulant.)

Does the fact that the US outlaws toplessness in public places prove that the US is mentally ill?

1) I’ve heard about foot fetishism but I haven’t heard anyone being stimulated by ankles. And that’s what I’m talking about. Isn’t fetishism a form of obsession?

2) You’ve made this remark before on the breasts. I know there were cultures in the past who showed them openly. The prophet Mahomed himself is said to have ordered the women of a given tribe to cover their breasts. But I’ve never heard such a thing about the Japanese. On the contrary. I watched the movie “The memoir’s of a Geisha” in 2005 and I think the obsession with the female body that is depicted in this movie is very similar to the “pious” Muslim’s obsession with the female body. Freud calls this sublimation. And because of this sublimation issue in countries like mine or like India, you have countless killing of women that are related to some “love” or unrequited love issues. You don’t really have that in America. Here, the guy can just show up with a gun in his hand, shoot you, than shoot himself and the (corrupt) authorities will call it “murder because of love”. Again, could there be a “murder because of love”? – Isn’t that pure nonsense?

3) No. But I am not even making a gender differentiation here. Supposing that your body is not totally repulsive for your age, even if you did something like that in school for instance, both girls and boys would stare at you. As I said this isn’t the African Savanah or some island in the pacific. People are not used to it so they will stare. And it’s normal. You’re the one who is not acting normal in that case which is why there might be consequences

Just say you disapprove. Just say you find the modern customs of your own culture to be better than theirs, and wish women could have more choice. But don't pretend to diagnose it.

Even you were right in your relativism. Who cares about kindergarten children dancing for instance?
“Of they shall not dance on music. They shall learn the one true faith”
- How can you say this is not mental illness. Well if it isn’t, than this guy hasn’t even seen a kid in his life. When I was I kid I would be angry even with logical rules imposed on me by adults. Imagine being a kid and not being able to dance on music? How healthy is that?

There is this great book written buy Umberto Eco called “The Name of the Rose”. It’s a detective / mystery novel in which a monk is invited into a 1327 İtalian monastery to solve mysterious death that are happening in this monastery. The story was also brought to the cinema in 1986 with a movie with the same name with Sean Connery playing this detective-monk William.

I really think that those who like old cinema should see it on some platform if you can. The book is also very interesting. What I really like in it (without causing any spoiler) is this constant opposition between the scholastic way of living and thinking in this medieval monastery that seems to be in constant opposition with Brother Williams more philosophical and rational (almost Cartesian) attitude. And in the end of the movie. You will see this persona, who went totally insane and started to murder because in one place he says (and that’s a spoiler) “Men do not laugh, humor is for monkeys, so ancient Greek comedies are the work of the Devil itself”.

  So that’s what I’m talking about. This is beyond religion-based superstition. This isn’t simple dogmatism or religious fanatism or zeal. If there are mental health professionals in the forum they should correct me. But banning Barbie dolls isn’t cultural. It isn’t religious either. I think the brain of this guy is not working properly. I mean what’s going to happen. What was that guy thinking of while he was making that law?

  Maybe he was seated in his balcony and he thought: “Hmmm, My Grandson Abdallah could undress that doll at some time. Than he would learn that girls have bobos and mumus. I can’t let that happen. He could become an evolutionist as a result of that! I won’t let this happen!”

- No. Their brains are not working like our brains. That’s all I am saying.

[Belacqua]

1) I’ve heard about foot fetishism but I haven’t heard anyone being stimulated by ankles. And that’s what I’m talking about. Isn’t fetishism a form of obsession?

It's been considered too sexy to show ankles in different times and places. How much of the body we can show, and which parts, is a cultural thing that varies according to place and time. If your whole culture says that showing elbows is provocative, then it's not fetishism.

Fetishism is a specific kind of thing. It isn't necessarily an illness or an obsession. It just means that you displace the "main event," so to speak, on to something else. There are men who get off on women's shoes, for example. Freud said this is because, for whatever reason, they were uncomfortable with full-on sex and displace the attraction onto something which is, for them, safer. These days, in keeping with a more tolerant age, this is considered less of an illness and more of an alternative lifestyle. 

But remember for Freud, the only "real" sex is the kind that makes babies. Everything else is substitution. Probably for people today, Freud's view on this seems unhealthy. 

2) You’ve made this remark before on the breasts. I know there were cultures in the past who showed them openly. The prophet Mahomed himself is said to have ordered the women of a given tribe to cover their breasts. But I’ve never heard such a thing about the Japanese. On the contrary. I watched the movie “The memoir’s of a Geisha” in 2005 and I think the obsession with the female body that is depicted in this movie is very similar to the “pious” Muslim’s obsession with the female body. 

Probably best to remember that "Memoirs of a Geisha" was a Hollywood movie starring a Chinese actress based on a book by an American. No doubt it's a titillating movie, but I wouldn't go there for historical accuracy. 

For example, the Chinese actress is beautiful according to our own standards, but would have been too skinny to Japanese people of the time, and her face not of the preferred type. They liked a rounder face with artificially high eyebrows. 

If the movie seemed similar to Muslim obsessions with the body, that tells us about American movie companies. And I think we all know that no one is more obsessed with female bodies than Hollywood. 

Freud calls this sublimation. And because of this sublimation issue in countries like mine or like India, you have countless killing of women that are related to some “love” or unrequited love issues. You don’t really have that in America. Here, the guy can just show up with a gun in his hand, shoot you, then shoot himself and the (corrupt) authorities will call it “murder because of love”. Again, could there be a “murder because of love”? – Isn’t that pure nonsense?

Not sure how it relates to sublimation. Freud (following the Greek philosophers he studied in school) thinks that Eros is the driving force in just about all human ambition. Sublimation is a GOOD thing. It's how we get civilization. 

3) No. But I am not even making a gender differentiation here. Supposing that your body is not totally repulsive for your age, even if you did something like that in school for instance, both girls and boys would stare at you. As I said this isn’t the African Savanah or some island in the pacific. People are not used to it so they will stare.  And it’s normal. You’re the one who is not acting normal in that case which is why there might be consequences

I think you're correct to say that it all depends on what we're used to. 

Even you were right in your relativism. Who cares about kindergarten children dancing for instance?
“Of they shall not dance on music. They shall learn the one true faith”
- How can you say this is not mental illness. 

It seems unhealthy to me and to you because we are from different cultures. 

Can we really diagnose different cultures as mentally ill based on these differences? 

Not to get all Foucault on you here, but the history of how we diagnose mental illness is a history of who has power in society. It is often a way for a powerful group to impose its will on another group. 

But banning Barbie dolls isn’t cultural. 

It sure as hell is cultural. It's all about teaching kids values. The body type, though unnatural, becomes an ideal, the goal of playing with them is to emphasize fashion, and the real goal of the toy is to get parents to buy an endless supply of new accessories. It teaches consumerism and self-worth through physical appearance. Arguably, consumerism and self-worth through physical appearance are very poor things for a child's mental health.

- No. Their brains are not working like our brains. That’s all I am saying.

Well I'm glad you have a perfectly healthy brain.

[HappySkeptic]

The covering of women in Islamic-majority countries is about control of their sexuality. Even Western society has been afraid of women's sexuality, and women's independence from husbands. Yes, each culture has different norms about coverings, but when the norms are skewed against women, it is obvious what is going on.

[Belacqua]

[...] Even Western society has been afraid of women's sexuality [...]

Really like that "even."

[arewethereyet]

I was going to pout about the 70s being referred to as 'ancient times' but was distracted by Mr. Snarkypants.

Carry on.

[Belacqua]

This is beyond religion-based superstition. This isn’t simple dogmatism or religious fanatism or zeal. If there are mental health professionals in the forum they should correct me. But banning Barbie dolls isn’t cultural. It isn’t religious either. I think the brain of this guy is not working properly. I mean what’s going to happen. What was that guy thinking of while he was making that law?

I think it would be an interesting exercise to work out a detailed description of sanity that wasn't in any way dependent on one's own cultural norms. I doubt very much that it's possible. 

Aristotle, for example, started with what he took to be universally true about the human animal, and worked from there to figure out what the very best kind of life would be for all people. I can guarantee you that NO ONE on this forum would agree with his conclusions. Our own culture has very different ideas about what kind of life is best.

No doubt lots of other people have tried.

In the '60s and '70s the psychologist Erich Fromm was popular in the US. His book The Sane Society attempted to do something like this -- to work out the norms for all people in any time, which could be used to judge whether a given society was sane or not. There's a lot to like in these books, but they are certainly products of their time. Considering their desire to be universal, the fact that they are so dated seems ironic. 

Ideas about what is mentally healthy and what isn't change so fast, I think we should be wary of assuming any kind of one-size-fits-all set of criteria for sanity.