Morality

[Deesse23]

In this naturalistic worldview, when you state something is good/evil, right/wrong, isn't that just pure subjective opinion that ebbs/flows with societal/cultural acceptance and personal opinion? 

Lets, hypothetically, assume i say "yes, morality is subjective. Murder, rape, and theft are maybe *bad* in one culture and *good* in another". That would be sad, real sad for humanity, maybe depressing, and for that reason you maybe DISLIKE this answer. But, so what? Do you know what an argument from consequences is? Because thats what you are setting up here.

However sad, brutal, depressing the truth about humanity (or the universe as a whole may be), that is no good reason for believing in a god. You should not accept propositions just because you dislike the consequence of the opposite.
If so i would be a millionaire, because i dont like not to be one.

Subjectiveness of morality:
YOUR christian morality is also subjective. Subjective to the whims of your god. Killing is bad....until your god orders it. But keep the virgins for yourself, its important! Remember?

Last but not least (and it has been said before): Why dont you rape, loot and pillage? Because a god tells you to not do so? If so, by all means keep your unjustified and irrational belief, otherwise you would be a f.ing danger to all the rest of us.
I for my part, being an atheist, am raping, pillaging and looting as much as i want, without having anyone to tell me. And that amount is ZERO. But i am sure you have read all about this stuff, and the fact that you have to open up yet another thread about this tells me that you still didnt absorb all of these things, yet, for whatever reason.

[The Grand Nudger]

Speaking of consequences....The proposition that, if there were no god, there would be no objective morality, has some extremely novel consequences if fully and correctly understood.

Objective morality refers to the (alleged/purported/supposed/observed) facts of any given matter or situation that make that thing bad. The existence of such facts is the bad making property. So, when we say that a thing is bad because it causes harm - the modification to objection would suggest that, if there were no god, thing x would not be harmful. Take a second to fully absorb that. This isn't a semantic or epistemic objection - it's an existential claim. This is a description of a reality where, if there were no god, curbstomping an infant would... not... harm... them.

[Fake Messiah]

As a side note, theists get offended when someone claims that atheists are more informed than them, and then they ask questions like where morality comes from in society.

Religion is keeping you in the dark.

So, for everything in society or nature that you think that "God" is the answer just means that you are in the dark about that topic and that you need to read up about it.

[Angrboda]

As a side note, theists get offended when someone claims that atheists are more informed than them, and then they ask questions like where morality comes from in society.

Religion is keeping you in the dark.

So, for everything in society or nature that you think that "God" is the answer just means that you are in the dark about that topic and that you need to read up about it.

This is generally true. A Pew study from a few years back found that atheists and Jews were the most knowledgable about theological matters. Catholics and Protestants were lower down the list.

[Kingpin]

Thanks for all the responses folks. The point I was trying to make is I see a LOT of atheists making moral judgments against theistic Gods and some go as far as saying that is WHY there cannot be a God. But how can one justify that judgment as matter of fact if morality as a whole is subjective to self and society? It cannot be fact if it's relative and subjective. So making moral judgment about God as factual wrong is to borrow from theistic morality to deny theism. Seems odd.

As for my morality subjective to God, what's the problem? So what if it is? He is the creator of all things, I'm perfectly fine being subjective to Him. All this tells me is that you want to be your own God. I believe morality is rooted in God's nature and we are made in the image of God, thus morality is engrained in our being, knowing right from wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

Thanks for all the responses folks.  The point I was trying to make is I see a LOT of atheists making moral judgments against theistic Gods and some go as far as saying that is WHY there cannot be a God.  But how can one justify that judgment as matter of fact if morality as a whole is subjective to self and society?  It cannot be fact if it's relative and subjective.  So making moral judgment about God as factual wrong is to borrow from theistic morality to deny theism.  Seems odd.

Neither subjective nor objective moral appraisals need to borrow anything from theistic morality.  If a subjectivist makes a moral judgement as though it were a fact, then they are borrowing from objectivist morality.  If a subjectivist makes a moral appraisal as a subjectivist, then they are not borrowing from anyone or anything at all.  They are referring to what they would and would not accept.  Would and would not worship.

As for my morality subjective to God, what's the problem?  So what if it is?  He is the creator of all things, I'm perfectly fine being subjective to Him.  All this tells me is that you want to be your own God.  I believe morality is rooted in God's nature and we are made in the image of God, thus morality is engrained in our being, knowing right from wrong.

You may be a happy slave, but this says nothing about the nature of morality?   Whether or not morality is subjective, objective, or other-than is not a question of how content you are with whatever position in life you believe you have with the ghost king.  Simply put, that is not, at all.....what that word means.

Being a moral objectivist, believing that there really are facts of right and wrong, doesn't make me a god or suggest that I would want to be one.  I wouldn't..in fact, if little things like facts matter to you.

I have a simple moral question, perhaps you'd be so kind as to answer it? When you decide whether or not something is right or wrong, is there a little checkbox in your appraisal for "does one or more gods exist?"..? Is there any moral thing in all of existence that you can think of, that would not be good or bad, based on whether it checked off that particular box?

[Deesse23]

As for my morality subjective to God, what's the problem?  So what if it is?  He is the creator of all things, I'm perfectly fine being subjective to Him.

YOU were the one suggesting that your "worldview" is NOT subjective by saying

In this naturalistic worldview, when you state something is good/evil, right/wrong, isn't that just pure subjective opinion

I just showed you that you were wrong, and now you are just backpedaling! Your gods commandments are "opinion", being the creator of everything or not.

 All this tells me is that you want to be your own God.

If you dont want to look like a dishonest ass, then stop strawmanning others. You may come to this board ask questions and get involved in a discussion, but that involves LISTENING to what others have to say, especially about themselves.

 I believe morality is rooted in God's nature and we are made in the image of God, thus morality is engrained in our being, knowing right from wrong.

Then you dont need his ten commandments, or him telling you to keep the virgins after annihilating other groups of people, which is contrary to your statement above.
So which one is it? You need your god to tell you what to do, or not?

If you are a "true christian", then all YOU have is the knowledge that you are going to take (and maybe keep as sex slaves) the virgins of another tribe you just wiped out. What i have is an entire ethical framework which i can DEMONSTRATE to be in accordance with its foundations that being healthy is better than being harmed (etc) and the knowledge that unlike you, i will NEVER slaughter other people and keep their virgin daughters to me for my own sexual pleasure.

[Angrboda]

Thanks for all the responses folks.  The point I was trying to make is I see a LOT of atheists making moral judgments against theistic Gods and some go as far as saying that is WHY there cannot be a God.  But how can one justify that judgment as matter of fact if morality as a whole is subjective to self and society?  It cannot be fact if it's relative and subjective.  So making moral judgment about God as factual wrong is to borrow from theistic morality to deny theism.  Seems odd.

That's not necessarily true. I know that's what you've been told, but those you learned from were in error. You've swallowed a lot of bad arguments.

But you'll ignore this like you ignored the two times I mentioned contrary facts prior. You are arguing in bad faith.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Thanks for all the responses folks.  The point I was trying to make is I see a LOT of atheists making moral judgments against theistic Gods and some go as far as saying that is WHY there cannot be a God.  But how can one justify that judgment as matter of fact if morality as a whole is subjective to self and society?  It cannot be fact if it's relative and subjective.  So making moral judgment about God as factual wrong is to borrow from theistic morality to deny theism.  Seems odd.

As for my morality subjective to God, what's the problem?  So what if it is?  He is the creator of all things, I'm perfectly fine being subjective to Him.  All this tells me is that you want to be your own God.  I believe morality is rooted in God's nature and we are made in the image of God, thus morality is engrained in our being, knowing right from wrong.

Turn it around: if God mandates what is moral, why does morality differ so much depending on time, place, and circumstance? Tribes in Papua-New Guinea clearly don’t have the same moral strictures regarding murder that you and I do. Stealing medicine for a desperately ill child clearly doesn’t carry the same moral burden as kidnapping.

It strikes me that if God is the source of morality and wants people to behave according to his moral strictures, he could easily have imparted the same innate moral sense to everyone who has ever lived. 

Boru

[Angrboda]

Thanks for all the responses folks.  The point I was trying to make is I see a LOT of atheists making moral judgments against theistic Gods and some go as far as saying that is WHY there cannot be a God.  But how can one justify that judgment as matter of fact if morality as a whole is subjective to self and society?  It cannot be fact if it's relative and subjective.  So making moral judgment about God as factual wrong is to borrow from theistic morality to deny theism.  Seems odd.

As for my morality subjective to God, what's the problem?  So what if it is?  He is the creator of all things, I'm perfectly fine being subjective to Him.  All this tells me is that you want to be your own God.  I believe morality is rooted in God's nature and we are made in the image of God, thus morality is engrained in our being, knowing right from wrong.

Turn it around: if God mandates what is moral, why does morality differ so much depending on time, place, and circumstance? Tribes in Papua-New Guinea clearly don’t have the same moral strictures regarding murder that you and I do. Stealing medicine for a desperately ill child clearly doesn’t carry the same moral burden as kidnapping.

It strikes me that if God is the source of morality and wants people to behave according to his moral strictures, he could easily have imparted the same innate moral sense to everyone who has ever lived. 

Boru

Supposedly he did. "14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" -- Romans 2:14-15. Which leads to the next bad faith argument that these people who do not follow the law of God do so because they are in rebellion against God for loving sin too much.

Hey Kingpin, got any more shitty arguments that have been dragged through the mud so many times there ain't a clean spot on them? All you're doing is demonstrating that you are an ignorant and stupid man.