Conscience and the Moral Argument as Evidence for the Goodness of God.

[The Grand Nudger]

I agree that morality is objective Nishant, and because it’s objective, it literally cannot be the arbitrary consequence of the details of a specific subject. Not me, not you, not god or the housecat.

[Deesse23]

In God, every attribute or perfection that He has exists in the highest possible plenitude

One post ago it was "god is identical with good", now its "god has attributes". Or are you saying that "good" (god) has many attributes "in plentitude"? How can "good" have other attributes than being....well, good?

Thus, God is not merely Good, but Goodness Itself

Ok, you are shifting the goalposts. Now its "god is goodness" instead of "god is good". Or are you saying that "god is identical to good and goodness itself"?
Wtf is "goodness" anyway? My guess would be something....something essential, or necessary or.....transcendent, with perfect plentitude of the highest order? Something along these lines i bet.

and the Source of All Goodness everywhere, not merely wise, but the Source of All Wisdom, and Holiness etc.

Oh, wow. Now he is not only good, and goodness itself, but the source of all goodness everywhere. Are you saying that god (goodness) is ...what... the source of himself everywhere? Or did he split up to be everywhere.....ahhh, omnipresence, eh?

Ohh, wait.....Wisdom, Holiness?....where did you just pull that suddenly out of...oh, i think we all know. But why not Saltiness? I love salty food! I really do.

We perceive Good and Evil exist by our Conscience, just as we perceive Light and Darkness exist by our Sight. But they exist Objectively and prior to any will of ours. This Goodness, which comes from God, and which we His creatures can reflect in certain amounts to the extent that we obey His Eternal Moral Law, finds its Source in God. Thus, God is not constrained or moved by an external standard of Goodness, but is Himself the Source of All Goodness. The more good and holy a creature becomes, the closer it moves toward God. God's commands, to do good and avoid evil, whether already known to us by our Conscience, or confirmed in e.g. the Ten Commandments, or Two Great Commandments of Christ, manifest His Goodness. God has made Nature a certain way, and studying Nature, and examining our Conscience, we can discover Good and Evil. We don't invent it because it is not Subjective, but we do discover it, the same as we do with Mathematical or Scientific Facts, because it is Objective.

What i am perceiving is this:



Do i sound a bit silly? Its just a consequence of your word games.

[The Grand Nudger]

I point to posts like that as the main reason that people even object to objective morality. I wouldn’t believe in it either if the people trying to assert it botched it that badly.

The irony, from my point of view, is that most of the time the faithful are positing that morality is a divine subjectivity - merely mislabeling that "objective" as nishant just did and has done repeatedly. The people arguing with them are often saying - nu uh, morality isn't objective, it's a human subjectivity. An absurd argument ensues in which both sides agree at every point and don't realize it.

[Bucky Ball]

God and good being identical isn’t a third option…it’s actually the question the dilemma asks.  

Why…are they identical?  Because good is a divine arbitrarity, or because god is constrained and motivated by an external standard of goodness?

The very same question can be asked of us, of our own good/ness.  God isn’t even necessary to explore this, as usual.

Thomistic Divine Simplicity, or the Doctrine that God is Pure Actuality, and in Him is no Potentiality (i.e. Contingency) is the Solution to the Euthyphro false dilemma. In God, every attribute or perfection that He has exists in the highest possible plenitude, as in its Ultimate Source. Thus, God is not merely Good, but Goodness Itself and the Source of All Goodness everywhere, not merely wise, but the Source of All Wisdom, and Holiness etc.

We perceive Good and Evil exist by our Conscience, just as we perceive Light and Darkness exist by our Sight. But they exist Objectively and prior to any will of ours. This Goodness, which comes from God, and which we His creatures can reflect in certain amounts to the extent that we obey His Eternal Moral Law, finds its Source in God. Thus, God is not constrained or moved by an external standard of Goodness, but is Himself the Source of All Goodness. The more good and holy a creature becomes, the closer it moves toward God. God's commands, to do good and avoid evil, whether already known to us by our Conscience, or confirmed in e.g. the Ten Commandments, or Two Great Commandments of Christ, manifest His Goodness. God has made Nature a certain way, and studying Nature, and examining our Conscience, we can discover Good and Evil. We don't invent it because it is not Subjective, but we do discover it, the same as we do with Mathematical or Scientific Facts, because it is Objective.

The problem with all your bullshit, is, (as I posted), ... the following ... 
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ... Epicurus. 

YOU have no answer to this. 

Tell us what is the PRACTICAL difference between Chinese Tao Mysticism, Agnostic Atheism, the Medieval (Catholic) "Cloud of the Unknowing", the "Dark Night of the Soul  ( St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila), and the highest form of Catholic Contemplative mysticism, St. Bernard of Clairveaux and Thomas Merton ? 
Take your time. 

Last but not least, why would you possibly be so stupid to think we gave a shit about your interpretation of Aquinas or any of the corrupt pedophile church's interpretation of Aquinas or anyone in Catholicism ? We don't. 

The Archbishop of Paris began an inquiry into Aquinas in the 1270's. It was never completed. 
Tempier's other 1277 condemnations
The second doctrinal inquiry was aimed against Thomas Aquinas. It was begun after Giles's censure, but still before March 28, 1277. According to Robert Wielockx, the inquiry against Thomas Aquinas was never completed.

[Nishant Xavier]

GN, and I would refer you back to Alexander Hamilton's statement, also the founder of the Bank of New York where I worked a couple of years earlier. Here's the statement: "Good and wise men, in all ages have supposed that the Deity, from the relations we stand in to Himself, and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable Law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution whatsoever. This is what is called the Law of Nature. Being coeval with mankind and dictated by God Himself, it is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries and at all times. No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original [Law].

You are confusing contingent authorities, like human beings, with the Necessary Being. God is also the cause of the Scientific Laws of Nature, and those are Objective, not Subjective. In the same way, the Moral Laws of the Author of Nature, are also Objective. You can disbelieve in Gravity all you like, but Gravity still exists. If you think you can jump of a building without consequences, the Laws of Nature mean that you objectively cannot, irrespective of your subjective opinions. That's what being Objective means. It is not identical but similar or analogous with Objective Moral Laws.

Deese, you misunderstand; if some attribute exists in God, it exists in its highest perfection, and in its ultimate source, from which all creatures derive their share of it. Saltiness is not a perfection. Goodness is. We know from our Conscience that Goodness exists and we strive to be Good. We should be, yet we are not the source of that goodness. In fact, no contingent being can be the source of Goodness. Only God, Who is non-contingent, is. Wisdom is another perfection. We all strive to be wise. There is also no contradiction between being wise and being good. [Thus, there is no contradiction in God being the Source of Both Goodness and Wisdom]. The wiser we are, the closer we are to God. Only God is perfectly Wise. All this follows from His Non-Potentiality, and also follows from His having caused the Universe. One does not need "saltiness" to cause the Universe. One does however need Wisdom to do so, and Goodness to give us a Conscience.

Regards, 
Xavier.

[The Grand Nudger]

That’s an awful lot, but why would it matter what Alexander Hamilton said…and is it more important to you that you got the name of your moral system right…or that the assertions you made about your moral system were true? If they were false…..would you abandon your god?

It’s not an issue of authority, at least not for me or anyone who posits an objective morality. If what was right was determined by any Authority- divine or otherwise, you’re asserting a relative or subjective morality. Is that how you think moral statements work? That whatever X with the greatest authority determines what is right and what is wrong? I disagree- but you’re certainly free to believe as much yourself.

In an objective morality, things are right or wrong regardless of what any authority says, and regardless of whatever reason (or non reason) that authority has for asserting itself.

[arewethereyet]

A guy said a thing. Must be true, right?

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe so, if we genuinely believe this nonsense it must be so. But if some guy, up to and including god, saying x or liking x or preferring x is the right and wrong making property…that’s the second option. Divine subjectivity.

[Fake Messiah]

God's commands, to do good and avoid evil, whether already known to us by our Conscience, or confirmed in e.g. the Ten Commandments

This is such ignorant bullshit. Your non-existent god in the Bible (where the Ten Commandments are) tells people to have slaves, rape children, kill people for collecting wood on Sabbath, slaughter nations, and all other immoral things.

Go and tell lies somewhere else.

[Bucky Ball]

Thomistic Divine Simplicity, or the Doctrine that God is Pure Actuality, and in Him is no Potentiality (i.e. Contingency) is the Solution to the Euthyphro false dilemma. In God, every attribute or perfection that He has exists in the highest possible plenitude, as in its Ultimate Source. Thus, God is not merely Good, but Goodness Itself and the Source of All Goodness everywhere, not merely wise, but the Source of All Wisdom, and Holiness etc.

We perceive Good and Evil exist by our Conscience, just as we perceive Light and Darkness exist by our Sight. But they exist Objectively and prior to any will of ours. This Goodness, which comes from God, and which we His creatures can reflect in certain amounts to the extent that we obey His Eternal Moral Law, finds its Source in God. Thus, God is not constrained or moved by an external standard of Goodness, but is Himself the Source of All Goodness. The more good and holy a creature becomes, the closer it moves toward God. God's commands, to do good and avoid evil, whether already known to us by our Conscience, or confirmed in e.g. the Ten Commandments, or Two Great Commandments of Christ, manifest His Goodness. God has made Nature a certain way, and studying Nature, and examining our Conscience, we can discover Good and Evil. We don't invent it because it is not Subjective, but we do discover it, the same as we do with Mathematical or Scientific Facts, because it is Objective.

You do realize I hope, that is utter bullshit in Christianity. And even your (stupid) religion recognizes it. 
We perceive what has been FORMED in our consciences, and that is different in every single person. 
It presumes that a conscience has been properly formed. YOU cannot judge that, (as arrogant as you are). 
What ? You never read your Catechism ? 

You obviously came here to preach. Go away. No one here needs you stupid sermons. 
You have nothing to offer here. Your PRIDE tells you, you do. 
Don't you have some altar boys to molest ?

The 10 Commandments are not part of the "New Covenant". What ? You never read the New Testament ?
Jesus told you there are 2 commandments. You think you know more than he. (BTW, there are 628 commandments).