SATANISM

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I tend to wear t-shirts til they get holes in, then cut them up for rags and go out and buy more t-shirts. It's part of a process I call 'therblig minimization'.

Boru

[MR. Macabre 666]

Whitechapel, seriously. I haven't seen or heard a single song from those clowns.

Oh okay, so you're just a poser then. Because Whitechapel's songs are all about hating God, corruption of the soul, killing people, that sort of thing. Why wouldn't you be into all that?

Because there are dozen's of other bands that are better, heavier, darker, and more authentic than any band who's shirts you can buy at Hot Topic. I've been listening to black/death metal for over 20 years, and "traditional" metal bands for over 20 years before that.
Whitechapel is a metal band?
If you're interested in hearing some real music, try this short list and let me know what you think,
Emperor
Immortal
Watain
Behemoth
Inquisition
Dark Funeral
Batushka
Hypocrisy
Morbid Angel
Dimmu Borgir
This would be a good start.

[Belacqua]

Oh okay, so you're just a poser then. Because Whitechapel's songs are all about hating God, corruption of the soul, killing people, that sort of thing. Why wouldn't you be into all that?

Because there are dozen's of other bands that are better, heavier, darker, and more authentic than any band who's shirts you can buy at Hot Topic. I've been listening to black/death metal for over 20 years, and "traditional" metal bands for over 20 years before that.
Whitechapel is a metal band?
If you're interested in hearing some real music, try this short list and let me know what you think,
Emperor
Immortal
Watain
Behemoth
Inquisition
Dark Funeral
Batushka
Hypocrisy
Morbid Angel
Dimmu Borgir
This would be a good start.

Genuine question here, I'm not trying to accuse anyone:

To what extent to bands like this use Nazi or White Supremacist imagery? 

I know that some people who don't believe in a real Satan use Satanic symbols (partly) for their shock value. It's fun to get a rise out of little old ladies. 

Is Nazi stuff used for the same purpose, even if people don't particularly believe it?

[AkiraTheViking]

Because there are dozen's of other bands that are better, heavier, darker, and more authentic than any band who's shirts you can buy at Hot Topic. I've been listening to black/death metal for over 20 years, and "traditional" metal bands for over 20 years before that.
Whitechapel is a metal band?
If you're interested in hearing some real music, try this short list and let me know what you think,
Emperor
Immortal
Watain
Behemoth
Inquisition
Dark Funeral
Batushka
Hypocrisy
Morbid Angel
Dimmu Borgir
This would be a good start.

Went by my cousin today. Listened to Dimmu Borgir for the 1st time. I LOVED them. It was their album Death Cult Armageddon. He had a signed copy (CD) and he also got the Deluxe Edition CD from the collection he bought so he gave me it.

Genuine question here, I'm not trying to accuse anyone:

To what extent to bands like this use Nazi or White Supremacist imagery? 

I know that some people who don't believe in a real Satan use Satanic symbols (partly) for their shock value. It's fun to get a rise out of little old ladies. 

Is Nazi stuff used for the same purpose, even if people don't particularly believe it?

Most don't, some use it for shock others deface it, like Pantera always has a ruined confedrate flag in allot of album/shirt art. But like every community there is always gonna be that 1% that is racist/sexist/homophobic that no one in the communites like.

[Belacqua]

Most don't, some use it for shock others deface it, like Pantera always has a ruined confedrate flag in allot of album/shirt art. But like every community there is always gonna be that 1% that is racist/sexist/homophobic that no one in the communites like.

It's interesting to me that these days there is a kind of tension between the desire to shock the normies that exists along with sharing most of the normies's values. I think this is fairly new in US culture. 

So not that long ago tattoos were a sign of not belonging to the mainstream. They were a permanent commitment to not having a regular job, for example. Sailors and carnies were declaring their self-chosen exile from middle-class life. Now tattoos are so common that office workers under age 40 are very likely to have them.

Here in Japan, there are still public bathhouses that forbid anyone with a tattoo from entering. This is because for a very long time tattoos were only for the Yakuza, as a no-going-back commitment to a life of crime. This is changing a slowly -- due to US influence, more non-Yakuza people are getting tattoos here. Recently I saw a very non-threatening young lady on the street who had a full sleeve tattoo of the local baseball team. Since supporting the baseball team (the Hiroshima Carp) is about the most mainstream thing you can do, it was an interesting mix of symbolism. 

Then in the US there are biker gangs who dress scary but make a point of helping homeless kittens, and that kind of thing. I appreciate the wit in this -- they are intentionally contradicting expectations. 

The thing is that setting out to shock the normies has been an increasingly popular thing to do since French writers started talking about it in the 19th century. Épater la bourgeoisie (shock the middle class) has been a motto for so long that it's trickled down to every high school kid in America, even if they don't know its history. 

When it gets to the point that middle class people who share middle class values are trying to adopt the symbols of shocking the middle class, then I wonder if the symbols still mean much. Like if there's a rebel outsider who shares all the values and goals of the Obama administration, he's not much of a rebel. 

These days a middle class white kid whose parents pay for him to go to art school would be shunned and mocked if he didn't adopt the signs of rebellion. So you see the paradox here -- when social pressure from a peer group tells someone that it's only acceptable to be a rebel, then it's not much of a rebellion. 

Or maybe rebellion isn't the goal any more -- maybe it's another kind of conformity, to the values and goals of the groups which used to shock. I don't know.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah Dimmu Borgir is alright. I always figured that more for symphonic rock than black metal. I mean, what's more wholesome than a bunch of people rising up against their christian oppressor?

[arewethereyet]

Most don't, some use it for shock others deface it, like Pantera always has a ruined confedrate flag in allot of album/shirt art. But like every community there is always gonna be that 1% that is racist/sexist/homophobic that no one in the communites like.

It's interesting to me that these days there is a kind of tension between the desire to shock the normies that exists along with sharing most of the normies's values. I think this is fairly new in US culture. 

So not that long ago tattoos were a sign of not belonging to the mainstream. They were a permanent commitment to not having a regular job, for example. Sailors and carnies were declaring their self-chosen exile from middle-class life. Now tattoos are so common that office workers under age 40 are very likely to have them.

Here in Japan, there are still public bathhouses that forbid anyone with a tattoo from entering. This is because for a very long time tattoos were only for the Yakuza, as a no-going-back commitment to a life of crime. This is changing a slowly -- due to US influence, more non-Yakuza people are getting tattoos here. Recently I saw a very non-threatening young lady on the street who had a full sleeve tattoo of the local baseball team. Since supporting the baseball team (the Hiroshima Carp) is about the most mainstream thing you can do, it was an interesting mix of symbolism. 

Then in the US there are biker gangs who dress scary but make a point of helping homeless kittens, and that kind of thing. I appreciate the wit in this -- they are intentionally contradicting expectations. 

The thing is that setting out to shock the normies has been an increasingly popular thing to do since French writers started talking about it in the 19th century. Épater la bourgeoisie (shock the middle class) has been a motto for so long that it's trickled down to every high school kid in America, even if they don't know its history. 

When it gets to the point that middle class people who share middle class values are trying to adopt the symbols of shocking the middle class, then I wonder if the symbols still mean much. Like if there's a rebel outsider who shares all the values and goals of the Obama administration, he's not much of a rebel. 

These days a middle class white kid whose parents pay for him to go to art school would be shunned and mocked if he didn't adopt the signs of rebellion. So you see the paradox here -- when social pressure from a peer group tells someone that it's only acceptable to be a rebel, then it's not much of a rebellion. 

Or maybe rebellion isn't the goal any more -- maybe it's another kind of conformity, to the values and goals of the groups which used to shock. I don't know.

Does it not occur to you that a tattoo (or more) doesn't have to be a statement?  Some certainly are but not all.  The old time tattoos of sailors, bikers, and the like have been largely replaced by a new style that tends to look more like a painting and less like the page from a coloring book with heavy black lines filled in with color.

I have a delicate ivy tattooed around one ankle.  It still looks as bright and crisp as it did when I had it done about 15 years ago.  Stylized into the tendrils of the ivy are the initials of my kids and grandkids.  Unless I tell you that, you wouldn't see it.  But I know they are there.  I did have to go back to have a letter added when my grandson was born.  

I do have a couple that are done the old school way.  By an old biker and Vietnam vet who even made some of his own inks.  They don't say much more than I liked the images at the time I had them done.  They have been on my legs long enough that they are part of me.  No statement, no rebellion...just there.  My breast cancer ribbon was tattooed on one year after my mastectomies.  Marked a point in my life that I didn't think I would reach.  

The piece on my lower right leg goes all the way around and is from knee to ankle.  It was a little pieced together and added onto till I went big with an image of a blue marlin.  My grandfather was a deep sea sport fishing captain.  It started to honor him and then expanded to a whole beach scene including the Hatteras Light which is located in the town where I was born.  It's not a statement to or against anyone or anything.  

You are too concerned with tattoos being some weird sort of code.  They aren't any more. 

What my tattoos mean or say to anyone else is of no consequence to me.

[AkiraTheViking]

Yeah Dimmu Borgir is alright.  I always figured that more for symphonic rock than black metal.  I mean, what's more wholesome than a bunch of people rising up against their christian oppressor?

They're 100% Symphonic Black Metal.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It's interesting to me that these days there is a kind of tension between the desire to shock the normies that exists along with sharing most of the normies's values. I think this is fairly new in US culture. 

So not that long ago tattoos were a sign of not belonging to the mainstream. They were a permanent commitment to not having a regular job, for example. Sailors and carnies were declaring their self-chosen exile from middle-class life. Now tattoos are so common that office workers under age 40 are very likely to have them.

Here in Japan, there are still public bathhouses that forbid anyone with a tattoo from entering. This is because for a very long time tattoos were only for the Yakuza, as a no-going-back commitment to a life of crime. This is changing a slowly -- due to US influence, more non-Yakuza people are getting tattoos here. Recently I saw a very non-threatening young lady on the street who had a full sleeve tattoo of the local baseball team. Since supporting the baseball team (the Hiroshima Carp) is about the most mainstream thing you can do, it was an interesting mix of symbolism. 

Then in the US there are biker gangs who dress scary but make a point of helping homeless kittens, and that kind of thing. I appreciate the wit in this -- they are intentionally contradicting expectations. 

The thing is that setting out to shock the normies has been an increasingly popular thing to do since French writers started talking about it in the 19th century. Épater la bourgeoisie (shock the middle class) has been a motto for so long that it's trickled down to every high school kid in America, even if they don't know its history. 

When it gets to the point that middle class people who share middle class values are trying to adopt the symbols of shocking the middle class, then I wonder if the symbols still mean much. Like if there's a rebel outsider who shares all the values and goals of the Obama administration, he's not much of a rebel. 

These days a middle class white kid whose parents pay for him to go to art school would be shunned and mocked if he didn't adopt the signs of rebellion. So you see the paradox here -- when social pressure from a peer group tells someone that it's only acceptable to be a rebel, then it's not much of a rebellion. 

Or maybe rebellion isn't the goal any more -- maybe it's another kind of conformity, to the values and goals of the groups which used to shock. I don't know.

Does it not occur to you that a tattoo (or more) doesn't have to be a statement?  Some certainly are but not all.  The old time tattoos of sailors, bikers, and the like have been largely replaced by a new style that tends to look more like a painting and less like the page from a coloring book with heavy black lines filled in with color.

I have a delicate ivy tattooed around one ankle.  It still looks as bright and crisp as it did when I had it done about 15 years ago.  Stylized into the tendrils of the ivy are the initials of my kids and grandkids.  Unless I tell you that, you wouldn't see it.  But I know they are there.  I did have to go back to have a letter added when my grandson was born.  

I do have a couple that are done the old school way.  By an old biker and Vietnam vet who even made some of his own inks.  They don't say much more than I liked the images at the time I had them done.  They have been on my legs long enough that they are part of me.  No statement, no rebellion...just there.  My breast cancer ribbon was tattooed on one year after my mastectomies.  Marked a point in my life that I didn't think I would reach.  

The piece on my lower right leg goes all the way around and is from knee to ankle.  It was a little pieced together and added onto till I went big with an image of a blue marlin.  My grandfather was a deep sea sport fishing captain.  It started to honor him and then expanded to a whole beach scene including the Hatteras Light which is located in the town where I was born.  It's not a statement to or against anyone or anything.  

You are too concerned with tattoos being some weird sort of code.  They aren't any more. 

What my tattoos mean or say to anyone else is of no consequence to me.

My tattoos / their deep, symbolic meanings:

Celtic harp / harps are cool.

Knot work band / knot work is cool.

Dragon / I was dating a girl who thought dragons were cool.

Boru

[MR. Macabre 666]

Because there are dozen's of other bands that are better, heavier, darker, and more authentic than any band who's shirts you can buy at Hot Topic. I've been listening to black/death metal for over 20 years, and "traditional" metal bands for over 20 years before that.
Whitechapel is a metal band?
If you're interested in hearing some real music, try this short list and let me know what you think,
Emperor
Immortal
Watain
Behemoth
Inquisition
Dark Funeral
Batushka
Hypocrisy
Morbid Angel
Dimmu Borgir
This would be a good start.

Genuine question here, I'm not trying to accuse anyone:

To what extent to bands like this use Nazi or White Supremacist imagery? 

I know that some people who don't believe in a real Satan use Satanic symbols (partly) for their shock value. It's fun to get a rise out of little old ladies. 

Is Nazi stuff used for the same purpose, even if people don't particularly believe it?

What you're probably referring to is a genre of music that's labeled NSBM(National Socialist Black Metal). None of the bands that I've listed have anything to do with those subjects, and I don't/won't listen to any of them. There are a few bands that take it seriously and are on very obscure record labels. Luckily, they're few and far between.
I'd have to say that the majority of the music I listen to is by musicians that take their subject matter very seriously. Watain, Behemoth, and Inquisition are great examples of this, everyone in those bands is an avowed Satanist who have been doing it for a very long time.
Behemoth just acknowledged their 30th anniversary as a band.