Banning circumsicion

[Nanny]

I disagree.

It obviously causes pain to the infant.  It obviously has a permanent cosmetic effect.  It has a slim risk of complications.  And some people report a negative affect on sexual pleasure.

It seems an obvious thing to require informed consent, to me.

The presence of pain does not equal harm, and all aspects of medicine carry risks. There is no such thing as a safe medical procedure. Physicians balance risks and benefits while doing no harm.

We were well informed about the potential risks - both of circumcision and of leaving the foreskin. My son is now 15 and I wouldn't know what to tell him if he had issues with a foreskin. Again, I have no memory, no negative, no harm from my circumcision. Same is true for my son. 

It's strange to me that folks on the far right and folks on the far left are so interested in other people's junk.

[h4ym4n]

You’re the one who said you had your sons penis mutilated just so his kit looks like yours

Okay internet forum warrior, I said that we decided to circumcise our son because I don't know how to look after a penis with a foreskin because I don't have one. 

Where is the harm? I had none. My son had none. His procedure was done by a urologist, not a mohel. 

Go battle someone else. I don't like you.

Where’s the harm?

So you don’t think circumcision is mutilation?

Just cosmetic surgery because you cant learn how to care for an uncircumcised penis and for parity

[Nanny]

The internet forum warrior is ignored.

[FrustratedFool]

The presence of pain does not equal harm, and all aspects of medicine carry risks. There is no such thing as a safe medical procedure. Physicians balance risks and benefits while doing no harm.

We were well informed about the potential risks - both of circumcision and of leaving the foreskin. My son is now 15 and I wouldn't know what to tell him if he had issues with a foreskin. Again, I have no memory, no negative, no harm from my circumcision. Same is true for my son. 

It's strange to me that folks on the far right and folks on the far left are so interested in other people's junk.

Pain/suffering is an intrinsic bad. Inflicting suffering with no suitably justifying reason I would see as a bad thing. At least an unempathic thing. I wouldn't want to inflict pain on someone regardless of whether it left any residual effects, nor have that inflicted upon me without consent. Certainly not upon my son.

Likewise, unnecessary risk is not something people generally accept as something fair to place onto others, especially by those who have a duty of care.

Additionally, I do not believe there are any medically accepted risks to having a foreskin (very few cultures regularly cut for reasons other than religion).

And permanent aesthetic changes should only be carried out with consent or sound medical reasons.

Would you be ok with me tattooing a baby?

[h4ym4n]

The internet forum warrior is ignored.

Is that what you say to your son when he challenges your views?

[Nanny]

Pain is not an intrinsic bad. It is a physiological response to a stimulus. Pain varies in duration and intensity and can cause harm, but it's not absolute. Edit - a crude example - the pain of a swollen ankle is a sign to favor that ankle rather than risk further injury. Memory of the pain of a burnt hand keeps fingers off the stove. Pain is an intrinsic good in these cases.

Foreskin fungal and yeast infections are common, painful, and recurring, can lead to UTIs and in rare cases sepsis. For someone who doesn't know what to look for, those risks far outweigh the temporary, unremembered pain on day 2 of life or whenever it is that they do the procedure. That was our decision. I'm not having any more kids and sonny isn't going to regrow his foreskin.

Don't circumcise your kids if your risk benefit equation is different. You get to decide for your kid. I shared our decision and I'm being derided as a mutilator and a perv. I won't engage internet forum warrior attacks on this subject but will happy exchange thoughts with the level headed.

[h4ym4n]

Did you have your sons appendix and tonsils taken out along with the circumcision?

Those thing can go bad too?

[brewer]

We should ban infant ear piercing? It's a cosmetic also and causes pain.

When it comes down to it, it's the parents choice.

[h4ym4n]

The internet forum warrior is ignored.

Your name fits

[FrustratedFool]

I would argue pain qua pain is something universally not desired/preferred unless for some justifying reason. It seems antithetical to my natural empathy and general temperament to see the infliction of pain on others as acceptable without adequate justification. We perhaps perceive pain infliction differently. I get a strong sense of repugnance and empathic discomfort when I see people in pain, and to do that to someone without good reason would make me feel bad.

It's interesting that you are aware of these risks with having a foreskin. I have a foreskin, as do most people in the UK (and likely Europe and elsewhere) and have never heard of such things. However, the relevant wiki article adds much to support your view that it can have some medical benefits, but it also adds information regarding the risks and other ethical issues that would support my view: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

It seems to me that outside of religious motivations and outside of very high risk HIV areas, it is a permanent treatment to protect slightly against temporary issues. In which case it seems wholly unwarranted medically. It would be akin to causing a permanent serious scar to slightly decrease the chance of getting athlete's foot (where this can be easily prevented by other means, and easily treated).

I think I agree with those medical associations and ethicists who hold it to not be medically justifiable and to be something that should require informed consent.

Would you be ok with me tattooing my child's penis as an infant if it likewise reduced his chance of having a treatable fungal infection? It seems equivalent. I suspect most would not, and that it is only the cultural acceptability of circumcision in certain locations which causes that inconsistency.