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Atheist Evangelism
#81
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:14 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:11 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Given our conversation elsewhere, do you not see this response to me as uncivil?  And if I point out to you that it is would you view me as being overly sensitive?

Regardless, that was my answer.  Subjective assessments cannot be false.  Do you not see how that is a response to your point?

It doesn't cut the matter at her joints.  The question was how false information in general is necessarily harmful, and you chose instead to focus on the example given to the exclusion of the greater point.

Can you give an example of false objective information which has no deleterious effects? I cannot think of any examples. Unless there are many such examples, I think my point stands that in general false information is harmful.
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#82
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:21 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:10 am)Angrboda Wrote: This seems like a rather suspect claim.  What is your evidence?

Good catch.  Let me re-phrase with greater precision:

If someone had prevented me from becoming religious, or had put the effort into deconverting me earlier, I believe my life would have been better, because various negative life events and experiences that happened to me, certain decisions I made with deleterious effect, certain activities I engaged in that resulted in harm, which were motivated in very large part by religious conviction, would most likely not have been instantiated, and it seems reasonable to hold, based upon previous conduct and common sense, to the idea that without those motivating convictions I would have far more likely have made alternative choices and consequently experienced a life I would subjectively deem as better (I use choice here in its subjective experiential sense).

For example, if I refused medicine based upon religious convictions and my health suffered as a result, then I think it reasonable to say that my life would have been better without the influence of religion.  Likewise if I suffered religious abuse, or conversion therapy, or had an unwanted child, or stayed in an abusive relationship, or didn't persue educational or employment opportunities, or hurt others, etc.

Hope that helps clarify my statement.

I was more interested in the many part.
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#83
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:23 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:14 am)Angrboda Wrote: It doesn't cut the matter at her joints.  The question was how false information in general is necessarily harmful, and you chose instead to focus on the example given to the exclusion of the greater point.

Can you give an example of false objective information which has no deleterious effects?  I cannot think of any examples.  Unless there are many such examples, I think my point stands that in general false information is harmful.

Pluto is a planet. The main crux is counting the harm and ignoring the good. My false belief might put me in good stead with other fans of Pluto. And it's not a point until you substantiate it.
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#84
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:24 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:21 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Good catch.  Let me re-phrase with greater precision:

If someone had prevented me from becoming religious, or had put the effort into deconverting me earlier, I believe my life would have been better, because various negative life events and experiences that happened to me, certain decisions I made with deleterious effect, certain activities I engaged in that resulted in harm, which were motivated in very large part by religious conviction, would most likely not have been instantiated, and it seems reasonable to hold, based upon previous conduct and common sense, to the idea that without those motivating convictions I would have far more likely have made alternative choices and consequently experienced a life I would subjectively deem as better (I use choice here in its subjective experiential sense).

For example, if I refused medicine based upon religious convictions and my health suffered as a result, then I think it reasonable to say that my life would have been better without the influence of religion.  Likewise if I suffered religious abuse, or conversion therapy, or had an unwanted child, or stayed in an abusive relationship, or didn't persue educational or employment opportunities, or hurt others, etc.

Hope that helps clarify my statement.

I was more interested in the many part.

Evidence that many people believe their lives would have been better if they hadn't have been religious: all the people who say so (in RL and on the internet) and give stories of the harm religion caused in their life.  I have read a few hundred.
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#85
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:27 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:24 am)Angrboda Wrote: I was more interested in the many part.

Evidence that many people believe their lives would have been better if they hadn't have been religious: all the people who say so (in RL and on the internet) and give stories of the harm religion caused in their life.  I have read a few hundred.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
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#86
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:24 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:23 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Can you give an example of false objective information which has no deleterious effects?  I cannot think of any examples.  Unless there are many such examples, I think my point stands that in general false information is harmful.

Pluto is a planet.  The main crux is counting the harm and ignoring the good.  My false belief might put me in good stead with other fans of Pluto.  And it's not a point until you substantiate it.

That seems to be a subjective thing hinged on the definition of the term 'planet'.  I don't think that really counts as an example of false objective information.

If it helps, though, I am willing to shore up my point by narrowing it down to saying that non-trivial false information results in harm, and that every major world religion makes a non-trivial false information claim.  Can we agree on that compromise point?
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#87
RE: Atheist Evangelism
(October 30, 2023 at 9:28 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(October 30, 2023 at 9:27 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Evidence that many people believe their lives would have been better if they hadn't have been religious: all the people who say so (in RL and on the internet) and give stories of the harm religion caused in their life.  I have read a few hundred.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Interesing.

What data would you accept for saying that religion caused someone harm and their life would be better without it?
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#88
RE: Atheist Evangelism
Religion has definitely had a deleterious effect on my own life, but I'm not convinced my life would've turned out any better had religion not been a factor. I have hurt people, taken advantage of others, and participated in degenerate sexual behavior. I doubt any of this would've happened had religion not been a part of my life.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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#89
RE: Atheist Evangelism
Pluto is a large Keiper Belt object. Incomplete information about the solar system made it possible for people to claim it was a planet.

Proposed names for other such objects when found:

DOC
DOPEY
SNEEZY
SLEEPY
HAPPY
GRUMPY
BASHFUL
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#90
RE: Atheist Evangelism
I suspect that being wrong about the nature of pluto becomes more and more deleterious the closer you get to the surface of pluto. Religion otoh is very close to us, always.
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