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The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
#41
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
I wonder if that one rule should be made clearly important in the welcome message received upon joining.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#42
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 9:33 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: I wonder if that one rule should be made clearly important in the welcome message received upon joining.

Do you suppose someone is going to clearly recall their welcome message from eight years ago?
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#43
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
Well shit Tim, you appear to know so little about the subject that I wonder whether you ought to be reading or writing?

You cant expect anyone to take you seriously if you want to litigate such basic facts of mere reality. Not here or anywhere else, really. Even the fundies try to come up with some reason they fucked the pooch. You seem content to pretend it's never happened? Let's imagine a world where your spine and your dignity were both intact, shall we? Where you don't pretend to draw an absolute blank at the notion of the church as a gatekeeping force in western history, because you're doing real history. Say you spent an hour explaining to silly atheists that the church didn't burn people for one absurd reason, but for another absurd reason, what do you think you will have accomplished. Who do you think you will have educated? What argument, do you imagine, you'll have won?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#44
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 12, 2023 at 4:47 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Before Columbus, the idea in Europe was that you would fall from the edge of the world if you went too far on the map.

Many people knew well before Columbus that the Earth was spherical. The sailors mentioned above were on group, but even Eratosthenes 1500 years before then not only understood the sphericity of the Earth, he computed its diameter to within about 2,500 miles.

Pretty cool using two sticks and a little walking.

The educated and the journeymen knew the world was round. Peasants? Nah, they weren't educated or experienced. But it wasn't a secret, nor was it unknown at all.

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#45
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 6:42 am)TimOneill Wrote:
(November 19, 2023 at 6:19 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: So they didn't need to be educated. If you say so. Great educator.

No, most people didn't need education. In pre-modern societies, most people had no need for literacy. So it wasn't that "the Church" somehow kept them from being educated. They had no need of it any more than their Greek or Roman Era ancestors did. The need for widespread literacy rose much later. Understand?

It should be noted that kings and princes used divine right to justify their rule over peasants. It just so happens that those same kings and princes had sway in who could and could not be educated beyond, say, knowing when to plant crops. That the Catholic Church supported many of these European nobles in their practice of fiefdom does indeed say something about the influence of Christianity on Western civilization, and not all to the good.

Put shortly, who decided who needed education or not? Kings and princes supported by religious authorities, in a large part. It should also be noted that the Church had a fairly hostile attitude to scientific learning in general, meaning to me that even it isn't directly culpable in misunderstanding geosphericity or heliocentricity, it's still guilty in part of retarding learning. That comes with punishing scientists for learning.

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#46
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.
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#47
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 10:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It should be noted that kings and princes used divine right to justify their rule over peasants. It just so happens that those same kings and princes had sway in who could and could not be educated beyond, say, knowing when to plant crops.

They did? Can you point me to examples of evidence these kings limited who could be educated?

Quote:Put shortly, who decided who needed education or not? Kings and princes supported by religious authorities, in a large part.

See above.



Quote: It should also be noted that the Church had a fairly hostile attitude to scientific learning in general, meaning to me that even it isn't directly culpable in misunderstanding geosphericity or heliocentricity, it's still guilty in part of retarding learning.

Again, can you give us evidence of this “hostility”?


Quote:That comes with punishing scientists for learning.

Can you give any examples of scientists “punished for learning”?
Tim O'Neill

History for Atheists - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
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#48
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 10:54 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.

People keep asserting that they were “kept ignorant” but keep failing to provide evidence this was some active policy by … anyone. Can you provide some?
Tim O'Neill

History for Atheists - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
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#49
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 10:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It should also be noted that the Church had a fairly hostile attitude to scientific learning in general, meaning to me that even it isn't directly culpable in misunderstanding geosphericity or heliocentricity, it's still guilty in part of retarding learning. That comes with punishing scientists for learning.

Here is a list of one or two brave souls who managed to escape this horrible oppression:




This list is only A through N. The complete list is too long to post. 

The full list may be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ca...scientists

Please note that this list is only of scientists and mathematicians who were also Catholic clergymen. Non-clergy Catholics are in a separate list.
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#50
RE: The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions
(November 19, 2023 at 11:08 pm)TimOneill Wrote:
(November 19, 2023 at 10:54 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.

People keep asserting that they were “kept ignorant” but keep failing to provide evidence this was some active policy by … anyone. Can you provide some?

I guess you're unfamiliar with anti literacy laws as well. It's a good thing you came here, in case you ever wanted to write another book about history for us.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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