The Current Evolution of Ancient Religious Institutions

[Kitan Etos]

I wonder if that one rule should be made clearly important in the welcome message received upon joining.

[awty]

I wonder if that one rule should be made clearly important in the welcome message received upon joining.

Do you suppose someone is going to clearly recall their welcome message from eight years ago?

[The Grand Nudger]

Well shit Tim, you appear to know so little about the subject that I wonder whether you ought to be reading or writing?

You cant expect anyone to take you seriously if you want to litigate such basic facts of mere reality. Not here or anywhere else, really. Even the fundies try to come up with some reason they fucked the pooch. You seem content to pretend it's never happened? Let's imagine a world where your spine and your dignity were both intact, shall we? Where you don't pretend to draw an absolute blank at the notion of the church as a gatekeeping force in western history, because you're doing real history. Say you spent an hour explaining to silly atheists that the church didn't burn people for one absurd reason, but for another absurd reason, what do you think you will have accomplished. Who do you think you will have educated? What argument, do you imagine, you'll have won?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Before Columbus, the idea in Europe was that you would fall from the edge of the world if you went too far on the map.

Many people knew well before Columbus that the Earth was spherical. The sailors mentioned above were on group, but even Eratosthenes 1500 years before then not only understood the sphericity of the Earth, he computed its diameter to within about 2,500 miles.

Pretty cool using two sticks and a little walking.

The educated and the journeymen knew the world was round. Peasants? Nah, they weren't educated or experienced. But it wasn't a secret, nor was it unknown at all.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So they didn't need to be educated. If you say so. Great educator.

No, most people didn't need education. In pre-modern societies, most people had no need for literacy. So it wasn't that "the Church" somehow kept them from being educated. They had no need of it any more than their Greek or Roman Era ancestors did. The need for widespread literacy rose much later. Understand?

It should be noted that kings and princes used divine right to justify their rule over peasants. It just so happens that those same kings and princes had sway in who could and could not be educated beyond, say, knowing when to plant crops. That the Catholic Church supported many of these European nobles in their practice of fiefdom does indeed say something about the influence of Christianity on Western civilization, and not all to the good.

Put shortly, who decided who needed education or not? Kings and princes supported by religious authorities, in a large part. It should also be noted that the Church had a fairly hostile attitude to scientific learning in general, meaning to me that even it isn't directly culpable in misunderstanding geosphericity or heliocentricity, it's still guilty in part of retarding learning. That comes with punishing scientists for learning.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.

[TimOneill]

It should be noted that kings and princes used divine right to justify their rule over peasants. It just so happens that those same kings and princes had sway in who could and could not be educated beyond, say, knowing when to plant crops.

They did? Can you point me to examples of evidence these kings limited who could be educated?

Put shortly, who decided who needed education or not? Kings and princes supported by religious authorities, in a large part.

See above.

It should also be noted that the Church had a fairly hostile attitude to scientific learning in general, meaning to me that even it isn't directly culpable in misunderstanding geosphericity or heliocentricity, it's still guilty in part of retarding learning.

Again, can you give us evidence of this “hostility”?

That comes with punishing scientists for learning.

Can you give any examples of scientists “punished for learning”?

[TimOneill]

Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.

People keep asserting that they were “kept ignorant” but keep failing to provide evidence this was some active policy by … anyone. Can you provide some?

[Belacqua]

[The Grand Nudger]

Better educated work forces raise everybody up. Keeping them ignorant was to keep them from thinking.

People keep asserting that they were “kept ignorant” but keep failing to provide evidence this was some active policy by … anyone. Can you provide some?

I guess you're unfamiliar with anti literacy laws as well. It's a good thing you came here, in case you ever wanted to write another book about history for us.