Does the Quran support Theocracy?

[Ferrocyanide]

 While Jesus too made this separation between divine and earthly power or kingdom 
 

Show me the lines from the Bible.

What do you mean by separation?
Do you mean that Jesus wants a human run government with no religious rules? I don’t think so.
The expectation that the jewish people had was that the royal class was going to come back. The savior was going to be someone sent by the jewish god to save Israel.

Besides, in ancient cultures, there was likely a tight integration between the king and the high priest and at times, they were the same person playing the role of king and mouthpiece of the gods.

This is an example of that kind of tight integration. This is how they did crime scene investigation back then:
Deuteronomy 21:1 KING JAMES VERSION
If [one] be found slain in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it, lying in the field, [and] it be not known who hath slain him: Then thy elders and thy judges shall come forth, and they shall measure unto the cities which [are] round about him that is slain: And it shall be, [that] the city [which is] next unto the slain man, even the elders of that city shall take an heifer, which hath not been wrought with, [and] which hath not drawn in the yoke; And the elders of that city shall bring down the heifer unto a rough valley, which is neither eared nor sown, and shall strike off the heifer’s neck there in the valley: And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be [tried: ] And all the elders of that city, [that are] next unto the slain [man,] shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley: And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, either have our eyes seen [it. ] Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel’s charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them. So shalt thou put away the [guilt of] innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do [that which is] right in the sight of the LORD.

^^^^^These are the words of a people who are afraid of an invisible force, an invisible personality: the jewish god. They are worried that the jewish god will make the weather worst or will bring disease to their people if they don’t tell the jewish god that they had nothing to do with the murder.

The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3”

(Book of Paulus; Romans 13/ 1-7) 
 

A christian once mentioned to me these lines.
I agree. It is essentially saying that you should obey your government.
These lines conflict with the jewish view that Rome is an evil and foreign empire that worships false gods.
It is quite probable that at this point in time (when Romans was written), some wars have taken place between Rome and Israel and Israel lost repeatably.
It is possible that Paul had accepted that they can’t beat Rome. It is quite possible that some romans and greeks had joined this new jewish sect and so, Paul had to accommodate them, make peace with them.

To sum up: There is no “divine ruler” As Jesus has said “My kingdom is not of this earth” +   “Then give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and give to God the things that are God's.” (Luke 20:25) 

We discussed this in these forums once.

I think some said that Jesus or whoever wrote that line did not wish to start a war with the Romans. Some think that the text is written by clever roman spies who want to cool down the hot heads that are in some sects. I think one person said that Jesus is acting as a sellout, as someone who isn’t going to truly save Israel from Rome.

[Leonardo17]

[The Grand Nudger]

Think about how what you just said ties back into your opq. You're a theist, you're ready for a totalitarian dictatorship run by a god-king. You would trade this for that.

Do you think that your islamic upbringing might have had some effect in shaping that part of you that openly desires a theocracy? This is one of the reasons that an an anti-theist. I don't think that it's possible for a person to genuinely believe in theistic gods without inevitably affirming dictatorships, as theism envisions the entire cosmos as a dictatorship with gods at the head. This is the right and proper organization of the word as per that genuine belief.

[Jackie]

[Ferrocyanide]

1) John 18:36 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not of this world [nor does it have its origin in this world]. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting [hard] to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this world.”

Just a few things:
1. Anyone can speak those words. No need to be a god or son of god or alien or alien-god.
2. Jesus can’t say something like “Ok, I am going to snap my fingers and my army is going to deal with you.” The moment he does something like that, his followers would understand that he is not capable and half would abandon him. I say half since the level of delusion varies from person to person.
The author who is writing those lines also understands that he would lose a lot of followers by writing something like that. That option is not available to him.
People would be asking “Well, wouldn’t that generate a major war between us and the Romans?” “Wouldn’t we be victors now?”

Imagine if I said I colored Joe Biden’s hair blue yesterday and now, you will all see that his hair is blue. Anyone can turn on the TV and check out Joe Biden’s hair color.
If I say that I walked on water, you aren’t going to see that yourself. All you’ll have is ink on paper.

I’m sure the jews have gone through that a bunch of times as other saviors came and went and non of them had the firepower to deal with the Roman army.

3. John 18:36 is basically nonsense.
Jesus doesn’t need to talk about servants and an army.
He can just snap his fingers and he can come down from the cross or he can erect a force field around himself and no one can catch him or torture him.
No need for an army. No need to harm any roman or jew.


4. There is certainly a pretty strong push to convert everyone into a christian. For example:

Matthew 10:33 KING JAMES VERSION
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

^^^^^In other words, you better convert and you better convert fast or you don’t get the keys to heaven.

5.

Matthew 10:34 KING JAMES VERSION
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household. {10:37} He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. {10:38} And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. {10:39} He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

^^^^^In this one, Jesus seems to be talking about taking action.
The roman army dealt with him quickly so he never got to reach the level of Mohammed.



6.

Matthew 10:37 KING JAMES VERSION
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

^^^^^I’m not sure what prompted Jesus to say this. How exactly do you compare your love level between your son and Jesus?
Is there something that the believer needs to do?
What does he need to do? Get rid of his possessions and follow Jesus? What is the point of that?

7.

Isaiah 9:6 KING JAMES VERSION
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

^^^^^Maybe this one will interest you more. He will be the government.
Some christians mention Isaiah 9:6 to me saying that the jews were waiting for Jesus. I am pretty sure that the jews were waiting for a savior but I have no idea for how long


8. In Revelation, it shows that the ultimate plan is to kill most humans and all animals. He is going to either save his followers or certain jews, which comes out to 144,000 people. These guys are going to be transported to space.
The other saved followers will be on a new Earth, in new Israel, which is shiny and new and it is daylight all the time and most likely, you will have a theocracy since this is the final plan.



CONCLUSION:
It is possible that other saviors reached the point of gathering enough listeners, formed an army, and they went to war with the Romans and they were slaughtered.
I don’t know if the NT is based on a real person, but if it is, it is possible that Jesus did not reach that point. He was not able to get the attention of enough jews and was not able to form an army.
Either that, or he decided at some point that other saviors tried the war thing with Rome and failed and he decided to take the peaceful route.
The problem is that Rome is pissed off with this rebel savior stuff and probably puts a lot of pressure on the priestly class to rat out such people. So, when Jesus and such people are hung, the rest are spared. Life goes on until the next savior pops up.

Which is why they murdered Jesus instead of trying to understand his teachings. Which is why they are stuck where they are stuck right now

I think there were multiple versions of christianity. Different sects formed with different ideas. The christianity that we have today seems to be Paul’s church where the goal is to be more global: bring in the europeans, no need to circumcise and forget a bunch of the jewish god’s laws. Paul ends up arguing with other sects.

It is normal. All religions evolve and split into new sects with new ideas over time.

We did discuss that back in the days when I had Cultural Anthropology classes.

It is good that you mention Anthropology.
One of the books that I have touches upon a very important concept in science. Not many books on chemistry and physics do it.
The concept is called Occam’s Razor.
It basically means go for the mundane explanation before going for aliens and gods and alien-gods and such.

In other words, jews were not chosen by any god. It was their leader that at some point in time decided to switch from polytheism to monotheism.
Who that person was and his reasons are lost through time but in terms of Occam’s razor and history, it is 99% certain that such a person existed. It is guessed that the reasons would be that worshiping an all powerful god makes the people more confident in their god. Secondly, when the priest made that change, was there a very terrible consequence or did something good happen? Again, we don’t know but if nothing terrible happened, the priest would interpret that to be a positive. If something good happened, he would interpret that as the god being pleased with him.

Medieval Legal systems that were based on biblical teachings gradually became modernized with a more rational and practical approach to legal matters.

Modern science took control by around ~1700. Some people noticed that they were getting somewhere by playing around with observation, with telescopes, with microscopes, with taking measurements, with playing with chemicals.
Since various people joined in and they formed a SIG (Special Interests Group), they feed on each other’s work, they encourage each other to push more.

I think it was during the 18xx that there was one major case. The cop noticed a footstep in the mud. He compared it to the footstep of a suspect. There was a match.
The bullet, diameter 1 cm, was stuck in the victim. Around the bullet was a piece of paper from a music sheet. The cop compared it with the music sheets of the suspect and there was a match. The shape of the teared paper was identical.
This was a case of having 0 witnesses. It was encouraging for them.
Another breakthrough was fingerprinting in the 18xx. This was hard to do.
At some point, they started using blood types to catch criminals.
By the 198xs, you have PCR to make a lot of copies of a DNA molecules.
Computer technology helped make fingerprint matches, DNA matches quickly.

^^^^^The above is a quick run down of some history of science.
Why would anyone not use such tools?

Always shave with Occam’s razor. It is normal that a priest from 1500 BCE is not going to develop such forensic techniques. His gods don’t exist. His gods don’t have advanced knowledge so, they can’t teach science.

And the Koran is asking many times “Don’t you ever use your reason? Don’t you ever think about the reality of the situation you are in right now?”.

That is something subjective. Some people reason that the universe is 6000 y old. Some reason that islam should evolve and some rules set by their god need to go to the trash.
Besides, the Koran author can’t say “Use your reason and figure out that the notion of gods is bullshit.”
If the Koran author said “Don’t use your own reasoning”, he is basically calling you an idiot and he also would have to make a much thicker book to cover all circumstances.

So the only way to do what you are saying today is to start living like the Amish and completely isolating ourselves from the realities of the 21st century.

Wait. What did I say? Which realities of the 21 st century are a problem for christianity or islam?

2. I’m not sure what your comment about Emperor Constantine and 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 is about.
Are you saying that rule was set by Emperor Constantine and he injected those lines into the Corinthians book?

As a theist I see God as an inner reality (something like “the Force” in George Lucas movies).

What is a god for you? Does a god have a brain or some kind of data processor? Does he think? Can he communicate with human languages?

Than it became obsolete as well. With stuff like the need for 2 female witnesses for each male witness etc.

Why was that an important rule before? Why was that rule eliminated?I don’t know every rule in Islam. Has the rule about eating pork been eliminated? Has the rule about praying 5 times a day been eliminated?

Ex: The Koran says that Jesus simply walked away after The Last Supper. The man who sold him to the Romans was crucified instead.

I watched Stargate the other day.
The army had a nuclear weapon. They went through the stargate. The plan was to blow up the stargate that was on some foreign planet. I guess they did not want aliens to come to Earth.
The alien master leader though that their plan was to kill him.
At one point, the nuclear bomb was activated. The alien took his space ship and went into space. The army guy was not able to deactivate the timer since the alien had modified the timer.
The army guy put the bomb into a teleporter and the bomb was teleported to the spaceship and boom. All the slave humans on that foreign planet were happy.

These are nice stories.
Some asshole dies and the good guys win.

[Leonardo17]

[The Grand Nudger]

Think about how what you just said ties back into your opq.  You're a theist, you're ready for a totalitarian dictatorship run by a god-king.  You would trade this for that.  

Do you think that your islamic upbringing might have had some effect in shaping that part of you that openly desires a theocracy?  This is one of the reasons that an an anti-theist.  I don't think that it's possible for a person to genuinely believe in theistic gods without inevitably affirming dictatorships, as theism envisions the entire cosmos as a dictatorship with gods at the head.  This is the right and proper organization of the word as per that genuine belief.

You are distorting what I am saying. I am saying that Ancient Egypt was a state of law. Their version of “theocracy” was actually very similar to our modern society. That’s what I wanted to say.
 
 

Who's society......? I don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship run by a god king. At least not yet. I do not yearn for it, and would not trade what I have for it.

[Ferrocyanide]

[Leonardo17]

[Ferrocyanide]

1) Maybe. I can’t say much about meditation since I have not done it. If it actually does something, such as move objects around telepathically or seeing remote location via remote sensing, then it can be demonstrated.

2) I guess some people want to be the next big leader since they want to impress people, they want to feel important.
Also, it is normal that when the master leader dies, it creates a power vacuum and the followers struggle to become the next leader and this often leads to a split in the religion. Some of these organized religions go for a democratic process. The main followers vote. That’s how a pope is elected. Probably, that is how the mormons (LDS) do it as well.
Mormons have 1 big cheese and with him are 2 guys. This hits the magical number of 3.
Below them are 7 guys. This hits the magical number of 7.
Below them are 72 guys. This hits the magical number of 72.

^^^^^I’m answering that in terms of Occam’s Razor. For a smooth shave, please buy Occam’s.

In terms of believing in gods and space aliens, I have no way of knowing if Mohamed or any of his followers are talking to some non human entities.

3) I was talking about the soul. The word soul is defined in different ways. This is something that you are going to run into when you talk to a theist.
For christians, it mostly means “intellect, thought, will, psyche”.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KING JAMES VERSION
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

^^^^^Mr Ecclesiastes says that because when you are dead, you are deactivated. Your brain is off, so you have no soul.



Matthew 10:28 KING JAMES VERSION
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

^^^^^Ecclesiastes 9:10 comes into conflict with this because when you are dead, there is no soul.
Matthew 10:28 seems to suggest that the soul can exist without a brain.

I have talked to christians that say that we don’t have a spirit, a gas thing, a blue glowing guy like we see in ghostbusters. We only have a soul and that is possible with the brain.
So, in order to have a resurrection, you would need a body in the after life.
Jewhova’s witnesses seem to believe that kind of thing.


4) The Bible has been interpreted and reinterpreted throughout the ages. Since it is open to many interpretations, your interpretation can’t be wrong.
For me, it looks like Jesus wants salemen. He wants his boys to go from house to house and do a sales pitch and convert people. I’m not interested in having long conversations with such people. I have read the same Bible as they have. Probably all europeans know how to read since the 20 th century. In past centuries, most people did not know how to read and the priest was the only educated person in town. He read the Bible for you at church. At some point in time, there were no printing machines either.
Times change but some are still stuck in the past. A few years back, jewhova witnesses would go door knowing. Christians trying to convert christians. Imagine that. Now, they stand at street corners with their pamphlets.

The other interpretation would be to offer your hospitality to some stranger in town. I have heard that a few cultures did this. These are old customs that don’t work in our modern million people population cities.

Now I don’t just hate rich capitalists who destroy the environment etc. I do sort of forgive these people on some level (I see them as Ego-Surrendered persons who actually need to be loved) and I act within my community to help things evolve toward something that is more pluralistic. And I am more decisive and assertive about these things now.
 

Yes, various people have various personality problems. From their POV, their personality is fine and they view others are defective.
The solution is not tails about Lazarus and the nameless rich man.
I think the solution is socialism. Place a high level of tax on the rich and fund universities, have public healthcare, public streets, police, firefighters, etc. All humans consume around the same amount of food for energy, so they don’t need millions of dollars.
There needs to be a few government organizations run by scientists to investigate how companies operate. Make recommendations on how to create closed cycles. Have government create policies to keep costs down, keep the pollution down, don’t ship plastic waste to foreign countries.

There was a nice show call Bullshit from Penn & Teller. I think they did an episode on the tax system and some other things.

- We are not supposed to become couch potatoes for God. That’s not how it works. You seem to be a young man so you have to do your thing and find your way (whatever that is) And the Quran does mention “Those who do good jobs for the benefit of all” and does despise people who get things to brutal strength and power (Like major oil and coal companies and/or the NRA in the US for instance)
 

Taking care of your body and also educating yourself is a long term process. Such things are discussed often in the media and schools. There is no reason to believe that concept comes from a god.
But the Bible is written the way it is written and I am commenting on it.
If the jewish god despises petrol companies and NRA, good for him. What is he doing to solve the problem?

5) Who is Sadhguru?

So that’s why the Clergy was wrong. That’s where The 6th century Muawiyah I and his Son Yazid who murdered the true Khalif (Ali) in 680.  They took their “Israel” or their worldly power and domination by murdering spiritual values (the son in law of the prophet who was our true spiritual leader at the time). 

I can’t say much about it since I don’t know who these people are and what the back story is.What’s a khalif?
A king?

6) “Think of this: How many people believe that world peace is possible today?

- Very few. The annual US budget on defense in 800 Billion Dollar / year and rising.”

It is a big world and you can find a believer in anything and everything.
Are you a believer in world peace? Do you believe that there is peace in heaven/space or wherever the gods are?

I don’t think Einstein has said that time is an illusion. He has said that time is something that clocks measure.
Also, time is a real thing. It has been demonstrated that time flows at various speed and experiments match up with the equations in physics. This is an indication that the theory has a good model.

7) Well, since the believers involve themselves in policies of the government, yes, it is about politics.
I will flip the switch from disagree to agree.

The believers of YEC in the USA try to inject their beliefs in biology classes and in the government.

Do not be misled. Religious zeal and bigotry and the political usade of religion (think of Narendra Mody in India) is a very dangerous thing because it’s like fascism. It creates an army of robots. It creates a completely sick society that is cut-out from reality itself. It’s pure evil.

I don’t know Narendra Mody, but for the YEC, their beliefs are their reality.
They don’t want the forces of evil, the devil and his friends the scientists and the atheists to convert their children to satanists. From their POV, I am involved in politics since I effect policy when I want science to be thought in school.
In other words, science is politico-science. Atheism is politico-atheism.

From their POV, evolution theory is not science and must be removed and real science should take its place, which is creationism (or intelligent design).

9) Rome had crumbled for some reason. Constantine wanted to bring it back and he decided that christianity can be used to reunite the various europeans. The problem with christianity was that there was never a singular christian religion. There were various sects that popup when a messiah comes along to save Israel and it gets disbanded. So, main issue was that they had to figure out what Jesus was. He called the big wig priests from various towns to come and work it out. It was the first council of Nicea. The 2 main ideas was that Jesus was the son of god or he was the jewish god in human form. After a month of debating, they could still not agree. Constantine stepped in and said to just choose something, so they decided on both. I think the second council of Nicea was about deciding which holy text to keep and which to burn. There were many in circulation.

Islam did not have these problems since it was not some obscure sect or a bunch of sects. Of course, the text of Mohamed ended up being shorter since he did not have the original Bible. Also, it was apparently just written by his followers and human memory tends to be faulty. Anyway, there weren’t many versions of the holy text with one conflicting with another. They sat down together and tried to make it uniform.
I haven’t combed through the Koran but I assume it doesn’t self contradict.

11) Yes, I have encountered people who try to claim that all religions are basically the same. This notion seems to be something that Hindus and Buddhists have. For the jewish flavor of religions, all other religions are false and are a mockery of the jewish god.