Elon Musk

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think that even hate speech should be allowed, for the simple fact that countering it is punching at air if it's stifled. Drive it underground, no one takes it seriously, and now we have AfD in Germany.

I like knowing who are the bigots, and think taking them on is useful.

The AfD came about because the Soviets wove the Nazis into the East German state, largely through membership of the Stasi.  That left the far-right ample space to fester in the eastern parts of Germany, as long as they paid as much lip service to communism as the Politburo did.

There is a reason why the AfD are an exclusively East German phenomenon.  There was no real reckoning over the Nazi period in the East.

@Deesse23, I'd like to hear your opinion here.

[Fake Messiah]

A classic tactic of authoritarian intimidation.

Elon Musk publicized the names of government employees he wants to cut. It’s terrifying federal workers

Last week, in the midst of the flurry of his daily missives, Musk reposted two X posts that revealed the names and titles of people holding four relatively obscure climate-related government positions. Each post has been viewed tens of millions of times, and the individuals named have been subjected to a barrage of negative attention. At least one of the four women named has deleted her social media accounts.

Several current federal employees told CNN they’re afraid their lives will be forever changed – including physically threatened – as Musk makes behind-the-scenes bureaucrats into personal targets. Others told CNN that the threat of being in Musk’s crosshairs might even drive them from their jobs entirely – achieving Musk’s smaller government goals without so much as a proper review.

“These tactics are aimed at sowing terror and fear at federal employees,” said Everett Kelley, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, which represents more than 800,000 of the 2.3 million civilian federal employees. “It’s intended to make them fearful that they will become afraid to speak up.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/27/busin...es-targets

[Ravenshire]

A classic tactic of authoritarian intimidation.

Elon Musk publicized the names of government employees he wants to cut. It’s terrifying federal workers

Last week, in the midst of the flurry of his daily missives, Musk reposted two X posts that revealed the names and titles of people holding four relatively obscure climate-related government positions. Each post has been viewed tens of millions of times, and the individuals named have been subjected to a barrage of negative attention. At least one of the four women named has deleted her social media accounts.

Several current federal employees told CNN they’re afraid their lives will be forever changed – including physically threatened – as Musk makes behind-the-scenes bureaucrats into personal targets. Others told CNN that the threat of being in Musk’s crosshairs might even drive them from their jobs entirely – achieving Musk’s smaller government goals without so much as a proper review.

“These tactics are aimed at sowing terror and fear at federal employees,” said Everett Kelley, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, which represents more than 800,000 of the 2.3 million civilian federal employees. “It’s intended to make them fearful that they will become afraid to speak up.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/27/busin...es-targets

The school bully has been given immense power, and is using it exactly as we would expect from a bully.

[Thumpalumpacus]

A classic tactic of authoritarian intimidation.

The school bully has been given immense power, and is using it exactly as we would expect from a bully.

... birds of a feather ...

[Deesse23]

The AfD came about because the Soviets wove the Nazis into the East German state, largely through membership of the Stasi.  That left the far-right ample space to fester in the eastern parts of Germany, as long as they paid as much lip service to communism as the Politburo did.

There is a reason why the AfD are an exclusively East German phenomenon.  There was no real reckoning over the Nazi period in the East.

@Deesse23, I'd like to hear your opinion here.

Its....complicated. I agree partially, in terms of "yes, but there is more to it".

Yes, its a well known fact that the GDR never dealth with the nazi past, they just ignored it, just like they ignored (denied) the existence of petty crime, unemployment and other "vices of the capitalist west". They also had a fair share of "foreigners" (just like we had in the west). We had Turks, Portugese and Italians. The GDR had Vietnamese and other fireigners from communist allied states. I think its safe to say that there were also resentments towards them, because.....humans are humans, even in a communist state.

As for the detailed history of the AfD: It didnt just "Pop up" its a kind of evolution, one we have seen in other places of the world (US and France are coming to my mind).

The AfD was founded by a professor of economy (Bernd Lucke). A rather dull guy, and it had not much success. Politically it was burgeoise, middle class and not extreme at all. But it featured a hallmark of those modern populist movements: It pandered to the grievances (perceived or real, doesnt matter) of people who were dissatisfied and disappointed of the "establishment" political class. I think thats the first core feature, just like with Trumpism, his followers counting on him not being a member of the established political class, and attributing to him some kind of expertise in economy that was unproven (yet). The Afd Was "just another" burgeoise, middle class, conservative movement i would say.

Phase two: 
Frauke Petry takes over. She is from Eastern Germany, also has a higher education and won an internal struggle against Lucke (i dont know the details what was going on behind closed curtains and i dont know anyone who does). Her positions were decidedly (more) xenophobic, anti EU, etc.. With her, the AfD quite abruptly became right wing. Its notable that she, like many other leaders of modern populist movements, also had some shady business going on, in her case leading to getting sentenced for " negligant perjury". 

I think what characterizes her policies is again common amongst modern populists: wrap up xenophobia, nationalism, anti.semitism, etc. in "better to sell" policies about how you have the silver bullet about saving the econom, "telling it how it is", and other unsuspicious policies. This way you "catch" many people who wouldnt support the former policies. I guess many of those are quite aware of them, but are willing to acept the tradeoff, for having the desired "breakthrough" that the political establishment is seemingly not able to provide. Additionally, of course, it attracts those who are already nationalists, anti semites, etc. All those who had to work underground or in too small groups to make a difference. In combination however this movement grows now, and those who werent so comfortable with racism....get used to it, like you get used to a tolerance for opioids for relief of pain, or keep plainly ignoring it.

What happened here i would compare to something that happened to the "good old" NSDAP too. It was founded with quite different intentions, but got quickly and completely taken over by some populist panderers to the lizard brain, with "economy" and "border security" as a nice gift wrapping.

Phase three: 
Petrys extremist policies attracted....extremists (duh) like Gauland or ultimately Höcke. In a palace revolution, Petry was removed and completely (duh) surprised about it. The revolution starts to eat up its children. Petry = Röhm or Robespierre? Maybe these comparisons are apt, your mileage may vary. Is it conceivable that the Tea Party movement was taken over by Trumpism in a similar manner? I think i see a common thread here.

With Gauland and Höcke throwing Petry out, the Afd was fully blown post fascist, or whatever you want to call it. Surprisingly, during all this internal turmoil, its voter base was steadily growing, since the political establishment didnt know how to counter the populist propaganda. I think this is exatly how Harris lost to Trump recently. You can twin a game rigged by those. They lie and they dont care about lieing, telling the truth wont help you at all. Thats also why i think "free speech" is powerless and the "competition of ideas" as a part of free speech has no edge at all. The leading figures dont give a shit about truth, and their voter base partially are buing all this bullcrap, or also dont care, as long as they are being told what they want to hear (I will throw out all those foreigners stealing your jobs and raping your women, and i will fix the economy by setting the clocks back 100y, trust me altough there is no evidence i am not completely talking out of my ass).

Its all entirely based on frustration of the voter base, combined with extremist ideas being made soicially acceptable.

Ok, Gauland et al have taken over, AfD has extremist tendencies. What is next? Again, something similar to what happened to the republican party (and to LePens party in France): The minortiy (even more!) extremist wing fails to get expulsed, and blackmalis the "mainstream" majortiy of AfD, and the majority let the extremist minorty take over (much like MTG, Boebert et al). It was tried to get rid of Höcke, who is clearly a fascist, but it didnt work. The party realized that if they split up both parts will be too small to hav power (funnily enough, thats exactly what happened to the extreme left wing party "Die Linke": IT split up in two parts, one og which certainly won tend up in the Bundestag, and the other, BSW, barely).

The AfD was originally founded as a mostly centrist, conservative parts, but got pushed to the extrme end by repreated sudden events, presenting a more continuous movement looking at a larger time scale.

With regard to your claim that if you dont stifle the nazi free speech, they will fester in the underground. I am not sure......looking at Höcke et al, they dont go underground, they show no intention at all, even after repeatedly having been sentenced for violating the limitations of speech were have here. After all they arent sentenced to major prison stints or so. They get fined or some parole.What Höcke is doing is: 
#1 Trying his luck again, and again, by pushing his luck with other intentionally borderline claims. Its basically an open challenge to the "system"
#2 Playing the victim card: Trying to wear the sentences they got as "badges of honor", "i got these scars for YOU, dear voter" (isnt that what that disgusting guy....what was his name...Alex Jones, yes! was doing? Isnt that what TRump is doing all the time too?)

I think those movements are more dangerous than many of us think, and i think that we dont have the tools (yet) to counter them. The leading political class(es) certainly are still puzzled and fumbling around. I fear that sooner or later they will arrange themselves with the fascists, and let the participate in gevernmental power. We will see in late February in Germany. The US is again one step ahead of us: The fascists are in power. I hope and am counting on thier particular incompetence, which they seem to show already, looking at the panoptikum of candidates, fortunately.

[Deesse23]

Part two:

I was reflecting on what i had posted and looking for a potential approach to deal with "them". What i came up with is: AL CAPONE

We need to engage them like AL CAPONE was engaged. A direct approach wont ever work, since they/AL is playing the system. What you need to do is
#1 Stay within the given limits of the law (and order)
#2 But go as far as you can legally go. Take off the (suede) gloves!
#3 Think out of the box

Al was finally caught for tax evasion. It never would have worked to get him for murder. Once you realize this, you can go "out of the box". Getting him for tax evasion was completely legal and moral. Nothing to complain about here. At the end he was exposed, thats what counted. You need Elliot Ness and his untouchables/incorruptibles. Impeachment of Trump by Mueller was kind of the correct approach (instead of trying to get him for rape, etc.), but unfortunately he already had subverted the Senate (namely Republicans) too much. Trying to get Höcke/AfD for unconstitutional $hit is a good approach. Arguing with those on the political stage is a losing game before you even start.

[Angrboda]

Part two:

I was reflecting on what i had posted and looking for a potential approach to deal with "them". What i came up with is: AL CAPONE

We need to engage them like AL CAPONE was engaged. A direct approach wont ever work, since they/AL is playing the system. What you need to do is
#1 Stay within the given limits of the law (and order)
#2 But go as far as you can legally go. Take off the (suede) gloves!
#3 Think out of the box

Al was finally caught for tax evasion. It never would have worked to get him for murder. Once you realize this, you can go "out of the box". Getting him for tax evasion was completely legal and moral. Nothing to complain about here. At the end he was exposed, thats what counted. You need Elliot Ness and his untouchables/incorruptibles. Impeachment of Trump by Mueller was kind of the correct approach (instead of trying to get him for rape, etc.), but unfortunately he already had subverted the Senate (namely Republicans) too much. Trying to get Höcke/AfD for unconstitutional $hit is a good approach. Arguing with those on the political stage is a losing game before you even start.

North Carolina's legislature in the waning days of their super-majority before the new legislature is seated has hollowed out what started as a bill related to dentistry and in the empty husk crafted a bill to basically emasculate the governor and such so as to prevent Democrats from exercising power. Examples include requiring judicial nominees being required to be approved by the Republican party and moving responsibility for running elections from the hands of the secretary of state, who will be a Democrat, into the hands of a state auditor, as that was one of the few elections the Republicans won, getting crushed all across the down-ballot races. Now, the thing is, for the time being, this all appears superficially legal. It's possible there's some constitutional overreach. Still, even then, if the Republicans held sway on the North Carolina Supreme Court, all these last-minute changes aimed at stripping power from an incoming administration would ostensibly be legal. This leads to the question of whether something being legal is the right bar if we're putting a ceiling upon how low the left should go to see that their policies and priorities are enacted, and contrary goals excluded. I have made, and will make, the argument that what restrains left-wing politicians in some measure from "going low" is that a part of the left's values is doing the right thing because it is the right thing, and that abandoning that would be a pyrrhic victory at best because we would then be modeling the same behaviors which we oppose and encouraging people to be ruthless and without scruple, something which in the long run is not good for the whole (as much of game theory regarding things like tit-for-tat and the prisoner's dilemma suggest). So while we could abandon the high road, would it make practical sense to do so beyond any question of mere expediency?

[The Grand Nudger]

Advocating for that abandonment probably does more good than actually doing it - similar to the fringe activist benefit to more centrist versions of the same cause. There's also the chance that if republicans began to believe that democrats might actually do what they do, they'd dial it back a bit out of simple self preservation.

[Fake Messiah]

Musk's government job and agency are useless, so the only thing he can do is publicly intimidate the government workers he sees as "unfit" to quit their jobs.

Musk’s Slashing of the Federal Budget Faces Big Hurdles

When Mr. Trump takes office, Mr. Musk’s group will face a daunting reality. An entire apparatus has developed over the centuries that allows the government to keep marching on in the face of economic shocks, wartime hardships, or — as in this case — political vows to diminish its size and spending.

Any effort to slash the federal government and its 2.3 million civilian workers will likely face resistance in Congress, lawsuits from activist groups and delays mandated by federal rules. Unlike in his businesses, Mr. Musk will not be the sole decider, but will have to build consensus among legislators, executive-branch staffers, his co-leader and Mr. Trump himself. And federal rules ostensibly prevent Mr. Musk and Mr. Ramaswamy from making decisions in private, unlike how many matters are handled in the business world.

Musk and Ramaswamy plan to compile a list of regulations that they believed stemmed from agencies having exceeded their legal authority.

“DOGE will present this list of regulations to President Trump, who can, by executive action, immediately pause the enforcement of those regulations and initiate the process for review and rescission,” the men wrote.

Mr. Musk and Mr. Ramaswamy said that cutting rules would allow them to cut staff, allowing “mass head-count reductions” across the government.

Yet many of those employees have civil-service protections, meaning they generally cannot be fired without cause, or for their political beliefs. In his first term, Mr. Trump tried to shift thousands of employees into a different category, where they could be fired at will. President Biden rescinded that order, called Schedule F, when he took office.

Jonathan H. Adler, a professor at the Case Western Reserve University School of Law, said that many of the ideas mentioned by Mr. Musk and Mr. Ramaswamy would be ripe for legal challenges and noted that many of Mr. Trump’s previous efforts to expansively use executive powers had been struck down by courts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/27/us/po...udget.html

[Thumpalumpacus]

Musk is about to learn he's a lemon, to be squeezed dry of juice before being discarded by Trump.