The Historical Jesus

[arewethereyet]

I want photos of this Jesus fella. Not the artwork that shows him with various skin, eye, and hair color.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Silver]

I want photos of this Jesus fella. Not the artwork that shows him with various skin, eye, and hair color.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Pat Mustard]

You are just running in circles or, in internet slang, trolling. At one point you are saying that you want equality for women and men and that biology plays no part, but then you claim how there is big difference between men and women in biology - but if you say that it doesn't matter you are again saying nothing. You are just luring people into pointless conversations where they don't know what they are talking about.

Needless to say that any conversation with you is pointless, so I don't plan to waste my time on you.

You strawmanned another poster because you couldn't argue against their position, plain and simple.

But then I expect no better from a tryhard christian apologist who doesn't understand his own religion.

PS Fake Messiah didn't strawman you, unless you think accurately describing your opponents positions to be a form of strawmanning.

So what I have is what I would like to refer to as a balanced position. 

1. Simply put I believe that differences exist between men and women. 
Do you disagree with this first statement?

2. The differences between men and women are often over-estimated by men.
Just because the differences are there that doesn't mean that they have to be fundamental or great. We are far more similar than we are different. 

3. These differences shouldn't be used as a basis for un-fair treatment. 
To re-iterate; I believe that men and women should be treated fairly before the law and should have the freedom to choose any career path which they see fit. It's not for me to decide what a woman should or shouldn't do. But I do have an idea for what I think will make her happiest which is why I shared Proverbs 31. 

Never did I insist that this Proverbs 31 should be codified as law, nor did I say that the only way for a woman to earn respect is to do all of the things which were listed. 

I think that this whole issue is just a problem of magnitude, and because I'm not fitting neatly into a box; Boru has described my views as "hypocritical" and Fake Messiah thinks I'm just trolling. 

I will admit however that my first response to this went a bit too far onto the straw-man side. I wasn't being totally fair to what they were saying, but it was getting to a point where I almost felt like they weren't even listening to me anymore so I got pretty aggressive with how far I went; over-simplifying what I thought their arguments were.

So to some extent you were right to call me out for straw-manning them, but I still fell as though I went second in that regard.

1) Yes. But then again there are differences between me and every other man on the planet. We're not replicas of each other. Your question is pointless.

2) And?

3) So you're leaving christianity then? Because christianity demands that women are the chattel property of their father or husband, depending on marital status. It is christianity and other religions that consider women to be non-people.

Proverbs 31 isn't about the equality of men and women, it's about how best a woman can be a good slave for her husband.

[Pat Mustard]

even though this census would obviously be very demanding of people who travel by foot and donkey it is still not at all outside the realm of possibility,

It is very much outside the realm of possibility that everyone in the empire is returning to the home of their ancestors from a thousand years earlier. Joseph had to return to the town of Bethlehem because he’s from the lineage of David, but King David "lived" a thousand years earlier.

How is that possible? How would people know where to go? If you had to go register to vote in the town your ancestors came from a thousand years ago, where would you go? And are we to imagine that this massive migration of millions of people, all over the empire, took place without any other author from the period so much as mentioning it? We know a lot about the reign of Caesar Augustus from the writings of historians, philosophers, essayists, poets, and others living about that time. In none of these writings, including an account written by Caesar Augustus himself about his own reign, is there a solitary word about any empire-wide census.

But yeah, the entire Roman Empire went uprooting for a weekend in order to register for a census. Give me a fucking break.

How could Joseph even know he was of the "House of David"? We're talking about fifty generations here, with many impostors claiming descent in the meantime because the "House of David" was the biblically approved monarchical bloodline.

[Mr Greene]

It is very much outside the realm of possibility that everyone in the empire is returning to the home of their ancestors from a thousand years earlier. Joseph had to return to the town of Bethlehem because he’s from the lineage of David, but King David "lived" a thousand years earlier.

How is that possible? How would people know where to go? If you had to go register to vote in the town your ancestors came from a thousand years ago, where would you go? And are we to imagine that this massive migration of millions of people, all over the empire, took place without any other author from the period so much as mentioning it? We know a lot about the reign of Caesar Augustus from the writings of historians, philosophers, essayists, poets, and others living about that time. In none of these writings, including an account written by Caesar Augustus himself about his own reign, is there a solitary word about any empire-wide census.

But yeah, the entire Roman Empire went uprooting for a weekend in order to register for a census. Give me a fucking break.

How could Joseph even know he was of the "House of David"?  We're talking about fifty generations here, with many impostors claiming descent in the meantime because the "House of David" was the biblically approved monarchical bloodline.

Presumably in much the same way as I can state that I'm of the House of de Bruce. Though obviously this doesn't require me to head off to Scotland or Normandy every time we have a census.

Having said that the first part of the Bible that doesn't directly contradict the physical evidence is the book of Ezra, so the House of David never existed and the genealogy is added later to appear to conform to a prophesy by a prophet who also never existed.

[Modern Atheism]

How could Joseph even know he was of the "House of David"? We're talking about fifty generations here, with many impostors claiming descent in the meantime because the "House of David" was the biblically approved monarchical bloodline.

According to what I have read, these kind of things were important for jews, who took their ancestry and family tree very seriously. It seems like Josephus had knowledge of his own tree, for example. So it is not implausible that Joseph had this knowledge.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's as implausible as everyone claiming to have descended from pocahontas or john wilkes booth in the states.

The historic jesus doesn't include a davidic lineage. This was "paul" and other proto christians trying to repair nathans prophecy. By the time of "jesus" it had become clear that the davidic line was done for. As in..had been done for..for centuries.

[Francisco Nova]

For me, Jesus was and is as real as the air you breathe, it's that simple.
Greetings: Francisco Novaventa.

[Disagreeable]

I want photos of this Jesus fella.  Not the artwork that shows him with various skin, eye, and hair color.  

Pics or it didn't happen.

This is a Jesus I could get behind.

Maybe not the best choice of words.

[A. Secular Human]

For me, Jesus was and is as real as the air you breathe, it's that simple.
Greetings: Francisco Novaventa.

I can prove that air actually exists.

Can you prove that Jesus existed, and more importantly, that he was a god?