Who's God did this?!?

[fr0d0]

Look frodo, you may be a very reasonably guy - I don't know you, but I'm sure you'll understand the rational logic behind what I'm saying - which is: If you believe that your god knows you personally, loves you, and looks after you - than you, by proxy, must believe that he cares for everyone this way.

Wrong.

God loves us all equally. It's US that choose to accept that or not.

Thus, it becomes impossible for a person of your beliefs to explain why your god allows certain people (like these poor bastards) to suffer in torment for an entire lifetime.

Which makes that statement bollocks doesn't it?

...unless of course you consider one of these two factors:
#1 These are not your beliefs and you don't believe that you have a personal relationship with god - as nearly all christians claim to have.
#2 These people, not being born into the Christian faith were cursed by god as they were being conceived.

Wrong again... given your misunderstanding above.

I have a personal relationship with God because I let him love me. That buys me no favours. Only in your fantasy is that so. That fantasy is nothing like my belief. Who does it serve? Straw man bashing??

[Thor]

damn right. how people can say that god has a plan is beyond me. what fucking plan could you possibly have which needs to put people in such suffering? i'd rather people say that if they do believe in god then to admit that he's some kind of fucked up experimentist who's using us as lab rats.

It always irritates me when believers dismiss horrible human suffering (the kind of suffering that is NOT caused by people) as "part of God's plan". And, of course, we're too stupid to possibly understand "God's plan".

Yes, your god is all that is good and loves us so much we could not possibly comprehend it. But he sits idly by doing nothing while people suffer painful life altering afflictions that he could easily cure with a twitch of his eye.

Makes about as much sense as using gravel to make pancakes.

[Napoléon]

mmmm gravel pancakes.

^ thoughts of frodo

jus' kiddin

[Cinjin]

Look frodo, you may be a very reasonably guy - I don't know you, but I'm sure you'll understand the rational logic behind what I'm saying - which is: If you believe that your god knows you personally, loves you, and looks after you - than you, by proxy, must believe that he cares for everyone this way.

Wrong.

God loves us all equally. It's US that choose to accept that or not.

How am I wrong if you just wrote: God loves us all equally. You just agreed with me ... you believe your god loves everyone the way he loves you. HOW pray tell, does that make me wrong?

Thus, it becomes impossible for a person of your beliefs to explain why your god allows certain people (like these poor bastards) to suffer in torment for an entire lifetime.

Which makes that statement bollocks doesn't it?

...nope, it keeps it to a logical progression.

...unless of course you consider one of these two factors:
#1 These are not your beliefs and you don't believe that you have a personal relationship with god - as nearly all christians claim to have.
#2 These people, not being born into the Christian faith were cursed by god as they were being conceived.

Wrong again... given your misunderstanding above.

another great argument there *rollingeyes*

I have a personal relationship with God because I let him love me. That buys me no favours. Only in your fantasy is that so. That fantasy is nothing like my belief. Who does it serve? Straw man bashing??

How does that remotely address my statement?? What are you even talking about?? What fantasy of mine???? You did not even come close to responding to my actual question nor did you even bother to include it in your rebutal. Straw man bashing -- REALLY????

I'll try it this way.
Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those poeple a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

Yes or No? Simple question. No fantasy. No talking in circles (which you're good at). No sidestepping. No answering for the masses. Just you and your belief. Yes or No?

[Godscreated]

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

[Cinjin]

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

Two things....
No. 1 - those hypothetical parents do not have supernatural powers that run out with one or two people. According to you, your god is everywhere and omnipotent - Therefore comparing a set of parents with money problems to your omnipotent god is just a poor comparison.
No. 2 - You still won't answer the question. Not a huge surprise, most christians wont because they cannot.
Here it is yet again: (a simple yes or no... give it a try)

Since you believe your god knows all and controls all things - Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those people a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

[Napoléon]

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

utter bollocks what a ridiculous comparison

[Thor]

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

What an absurd analogy. We are not talking about people with no significant problems who basically want cosmetic surgery to look nicer. We are talking about people with serious, painful, life altering conditions that your ominpotent deity could cure with no effort at all. People with awful tumors covering their bodies. People with severe mental diseases who can't function or take care of themselves. People with cerebral palsy, autism, Down's Syndrome, etc....

What you don't seem to get is that the world functions exactly as we would expect if there is no loving deity. Everything makes sense in this context. However, if there is a loving deity, then the world makes NO sense. Unless your deity is incompetent or a retard.

[reverendjeremiah]

Frodo is correct in what he has stated, you all want to see God in a bad light and so you do. God does love us all equally but that doesn't mean everyone gets the same life or the same breaks in life. It doesn't work that way. Let's look at it this way, a family with several children in it, some are physically fit a few have slight physical defects and a couple have bad physical defects. The parents have the means to get help for two with the bad defects and they do ( good parents ). What about the ones with slight defects, the parents get them help because the children complain they were not treated equally (good parents ). Now the ones who have no defects feel left out and want something done for their looks and the parents do so (good parents). Now all the children that had physical defects feel that they deserve to have more surgery to bring them to the standard of the ones who had no defects and on and on this goes and the parents do not know how to stop this maddening cycle and give up (bad parents). So whats the answer, all the children wanted to be treated equally and the loving parents wanted to give them what they wanted yet the result was unsatisfied childern. Where does this kind of attitude end, with all the children mad at mom and dad. This is the human condition, we will never be satisfied unless we love the One in control unconditionally.

This paragraph doesn even come close to the topic, much less a theodicy. The topic is "Who's god did this". In order for this paragraph to even come CLOSE to the topic, the parents would have KNOWINGLY had to have created the children with these physical defects. So you believe your god only has enough cash to deal with certain ones who are bad off, and the others he has no cash or power to help fix. And then, eventually, your god does not know how to stop the maddening cycle and then he just gives up?

Hey, that was your comparison. Apparently your solution to the problem of evil is to claim that your god is NOT all powerful, and is therefore helpless in the face of such overwhelming malevolence. He might be able to help some people some time, but according to you, your god is not all powerful and is overwhelmed by the maddening cycle of disease and hate, so therefore gave up.

Doesnt sound like a benevolent god to me. Sounds like you worship a faulty human, who breaks under pressure and is unable to handle his own creation.---and you wonder why we are not interested in converting to your beliefs.

In your paragraph, you also make a very common, and very WRONG mistake when discussion of god come up. You are trying to compare an all knowing, all powerful god to mortal people. Can those parents easily snap their fingers and cure every physical defect of their children? No. Would they if they could? Well, if they could but chose not to, that would make them sons-of-bitches in my eyes. Something tells me you would agree with that.

...NOW....

Insert a god into the mix. This god can snap his fingers and get everything he wants. God could easily snap his finger to cure all four of those children, but he doesnt. A benevolent person, and most especially a benevolent god, would not think twice about curing all 4 of those children, no questions asked. God does not cure those children. ANY of them. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that your god is NOT benevolent at least.. and maybe, just maybe, doesnt give a fuck.

..and you worship that careless prick.

[fr0d0]

How does that remotely address my statement?? What are you even talking about?? What fantasy of mine???? You did not even come close to responding to my actual question nor did you even bother to include it in your rebutal. Straw man bashing -- REALLY????

I'll try it this way.
Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those poeple a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?

Yes or No? Simple question. No fantasy. No talking in circles (which you're good at). No sidestepping. No answering for the masses. Just you and your belief. Yes or No?

Hi Cinjin

What I was trying to point out about your statement, which I agree doesn't look clear now... is that you jump from God loving everyone equally to God apparently NOT loving all equally ~ by choosing to punish some.

I personally don't believe that God does this. This is what I'm saying about your insistence.. that you repeated twice above ignoring my statements to the contrary. If you want to continue to pursue this understanding of god, then I'm afraid you won't be addressing me, or what I understand to be the correct interpretation of Christianity. I'm not about to defend a belief that I don't hold and don't think is correct.

So to try to answer your new question, or re phrased question... [Do you believe that your god is willfully allowing those poeple a lifetime of suffering for some unknowable plan of his making?]
Gods plan that you're addressing I equate with the natural order (we all know the scope of that)... it's just how things are. This is the setup, the creation, the way the cosmos is ordered. The way that things suffer as part of life. Nothing mysterious there.

I understand God to be creator. Divine spark. Originator. Positive force. What goes against God... negativity, death, destruction...... isn't God. It's anti God.

So.... no. For those reasons.