Self-Rejection, Self-Sacrifice, Self-Denial VS Egoism, Earthly Pleasures, Hedonism

[arewethereyet]

Yer an idiot...no wonder the resident troll interacts with you.

[AB Caro]

You can live a "free and hedonistic life” as much as you like so long as it does no harm to anyone else

True, but societal pressures can spoil or even try to take away this lifestyle.

The school aged kids and teens can’t maximize their free hedonism due to academic and family pressures.

In college age, the job pressure also reduces the time that could have been used for free hedonism. And even after graduating from college, job pressure consumes the same amount of time/lost pleasure taking over what used to be the slot occupied by academic pressure. While the ability to detach from family pressure depends on culture.

So no matter what there is no way to increase the quota of a “free and hedonistic life”, and even so, society’s pressures still try to consume non-work hours through guilt, shame, etc, spoiling what could have been pure, unfiltered hedonistic freedom.

[Belacqua]

You can live a "free and hedonistic life” as much as you like so long as it does no harm to anyone else

True, but societal pressures can spoil or even try to take away this lifestyle.

The school aged kids and teens can’t maximize their free hedonism due to academic and family pressures.

In college age, the job pressure also reduces the time that could have been used for free hedonism. And even after graduating from college, job pressure consumes the same amount of time/lost pleasure taking over what used to be the slot occupied by academic pressure. While the ability to detach from family pressure depends on culture.

So no matter what there is no way to increase the quota of a “free and hedonistic life”, and even so, society’s pressures still try to consume non-work hours through guilt, shame, etc, spoiling what could have been pure, unfiltered hedonistic freedom.

I wonder if you live among especially strict people...?

Most people I know would probably say that if you're not a burden to others and you're not hurting anyone (as you say in your signature) there is leeway in one's spare time. 

So for example if you work five days a week at honest work, will people really tell you not to spend your weekends painting pictures, or practicing the piano?

[Angrboda]

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Administrator Notice
Removed Serious tag, because this isn’t a serious topic.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

To elaborate we all know and live under capitalism, reject/sacrifice/deny self-interests just to pay bills or alternatively please “society”. And if we dare to stroke our ego by rewarding ourselves with hedonistic earthly pleasures (aka hobbies/interests/passions), we’re “greedy” “selfish” “egoistic” or worse “psychopaths”.

Having a job that matches someone’s interests/passions is a pipe dream, think of average joes’ typical boring jobs

Because our civil religion was designed by committee and over time.

Is “society” just a “secular God” because there’s also a heavy system of pressures, guilt and shame for not keeping up with the many imposed standards, roles, norms. And also perceived rewards for following what it deems desirable approved “status symbols”.

Even after having rejected God, gods, spirits and all that, there’s no escaping pressures, guilt and shame and it sucks, let alone the FOMO of not having the approved “status symbols”.

Not in any sense that theists would see as a god, no.  In comparative religious studies, yes, absolutely.  The focus of worship of the civil religion is the state or society itself.  The guilt and shame and pressure are things we bring to the table no matter the circumstance.  Likewise concerns about status and performance. We're hyper social. This is a very short summary that in no way describes the totality of culture or even "our culture"..whatever that is. American culture, and the western culture it comes from, went through a prolonged period of heavy emphasis on productivity and the reduction of idleness. Both as a development strategy and as a way of reducing civilizational pressures. Idle hands and all.

Why is the society so self-averse or self-“hating”.

as at the top-the indelible stamp of it's lowly origin.

[Sheldon]

Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment,

Why wouldn't they be? 

while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged,...Self-Rejection, Self-Sacrifice, Self-Denial

Who says they're discouraged, and so what if they were, this is a privately owned forum after all?

we all know and live under capitalism, reject/sacrifice/deny self-interests just to pay bills or alternatively please “society”. 

Nope, I don't agree. 

Having a job that matches someone’s interests/passions is a pipe dream, 

Not necessarily, and again so what? 

Is “society” just a “secular God” because there’s also a heavy system of pressures, guilt and shame for not keeping up with the many imposed standards, roles, norms. And also perceived rewards for following what it deems desirable approved “status symbols”.

Secular god is an oxymoron, think the question through, and word it more clearly. Are you asking if modern capitalist societies are replacing theism? I doubt it, this seems overly simplistic to me. 

Even after having rejected God, gods, spirits and all that, there’s no escaping pressures, guilt and shame

An odd straw man, I cannot of course speak for other atheists, but I don't base disbelief on the idea it will help me escape anything. 

Why is the society so self-averse or self-“hating”.

What does that even mean, which society, and why would anyone want to indulge in "self hating"?

How does pursuing a hobby make me greedy or selfish?

Not my thoughts but society’s.

Society views hobbies as greedy and or selfish? I am dubious, and again, so what? 

I don’t even know myself about the “greediness”, it’s coming from society, not my thoughts.

Well they are your thoughts clearly, you are making sweeping claims about society, but offering nothing, beyond your own opinion, to support those claims.

[The Valkyrie]

What about self-pleasuring?

[zebo-the-fat]

What about self-pleasuring?

Probably fine, but wash your hands afterwards

[Belacqua]

As for the ascetics, is it even possible to be a secular (NEITHER spiritual NOR religious) ascetic? Because the pleasure most of them talk about is always something spiritual/religious in nature. Or if we stretch the definition of “spiritual” to something like “Mark Green’s Atheopaganism” which is just “awe” for natural occurences, now that makes sense.

You're right that "ascetic" is normally a religious thing. I think we could avoid this by just talking about "living consciously," or "getting rid of the things we don't need." 

So I agree with you that much of what we want is what society tells us we should want. It takes time and conscious thought to work out what we really ought to focus on.

I'd never heard of Mark Green's Atheopaganism before, but I've done a little Googling. I can see how that would appeal to some people. Certain kinds of rituals or practices can enhance our awareness and appreciation, and don't really need to be rooted in concepts of the divine. For example the tea ceremony in Japan has Buddhist roots, but a person wouldn't have to accept all the metaphysics of Buddhism to benefit from it. A pause for calm aesthetic appreciation improves one's life. 

I just bought a house that's literally on top of a mountain, and I've been thinking about how I want to live here. I foresee a lot of gardening in my future, and I hope to do this in a conscious, appreciative manner. Not quite ritual, but with that kind of awareness.

So I think it's important to work on these ideas of social influence vs. what is really good for us. I see, though, that the people who run this forum don't approve of your posts, so we're not going to be able to do the work here. I hope that you find serious people to talk with. Good luck!