Jesus' resurrection was prophesized?

[Mister Agenda]

It’s almost as if God wanted there to be a role for faith.

The problem with faith is that you can believe anything with it. Devotees of Kali have faith too.

Even a fair number of you guys don't seem to think very highly of it, considering how many times we've heard that it takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian.

To a skeptic, faith isn't a virtue, it's a vice.

[The Grand Nudger]

The longer it gets left, the more people get to be part of the resurrection on the shiny new earth. Given that, I’m good with a delay of any length, frankly.

You being happy that a prediction failed because the new prediction includes you ( a brave assumption on your part, btw )....is all fine and well for your level of satisfaction - but it does not modify whether or not that prediction failed-in-fact.  

You're just telling us that you're glad it did fail...you see?  

This is a comment on your values and expectations. Personally, I put much less stock in the fantasy of a shiny new earth than in taking care of the one we have - which...to my mind, sounds a whole hell of alot more responsible and respectful of both the earth, and whoever allegedly made it. That's one of the things that leads me to my closing thoughts below. Just a mismatch in fundamental values that makes the question of whether or not the book is magic a fun academic aside - but not meaningful in any way.

You need to think BIG here. If it’s unstoppable belief you want to produce, why not go for ever changing writing in the sky, a whole posse of angels surrounding us, miracles on tap and a constant stream of pictures of Jesus in our food?

It’s almost as if God wanted there to be a role for faith.

Good for god, bad for a rational demonstration or argument.  I have an unstoppable belief in gravity. Any number of things, really. Presuming we live in a god breathed world, and especially if we take magic books many accounts of gods actions in that world, this idea of a shy god who leaves it up to faith doesn't hold much water. This would be the exception, and not the rule.

More than anything, though, this retreat into faith betrays your belief that magic book is a crystal ball. If god gifted us a magic book....then what exactly was god looking to leave to faith...?

“After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.”

You must have really big hands.

-there was an earthquake, the graves opened up, and zombies walked the earth.  What if I told you I had 500 nameless (and now dead) witnesses to breaking every track record ever set?  No miracles there, mind you, I'm just a really fast guy. Believe me? Probably not, eh? Okay, okay, better yet....some other guy tells you that he didn't see it but knows of 500 nameless (and now dead) witnesses to my doing so. Now you'll believe that for sure. No? Well shit. What if some third guy wrote down in a book about the second guy that he said he didn't see it but knew of 500 nameless (and now dead) witnesses to my doing so? Am I reaching christlike levels of certitude yet?

Ultimately, and I suspect this could be said about anything you would argue on the matter - you're going to need to figure out whether you have a blueprint for the future on your hands - reducing the truth of all of this to a mechanical exercise - or if you also see some issues that might lead other rational people to conclude that you're wrong...but you have faith in it nonetheless. There's absolutely no shortage of ways to disabuse yourself of the inarguable elements of the peculiar beliefs you present while remaining true to a faith in them. I say inarguable only in the sense that for whatever reason (the passage of time, unreliable narration, etc) it's not really possible to argue your way to the conclusion.

I don't want to oversell anything, you producing a more credible version of your faith would no more make me a christian than every jot and tittle of magic book being literally true would - it's just not my jam.

[Fake Messiah]

These prophesies...what's up with the second coming date moving on the regular?

Makes me doubt other so-called prophecies.

Indeed, atheists have always been more accurate about Jesus than Christians. If only Christians started to listen to atheists.

[Vicki Q]

You already explained how you see it: you admitted that the OT didn't predict Jesus's resurrection,

No I didn't. Isaiah 53, Jonah, Job 19, and as Peter pointed out, Psalm 16. Also...

but that when it supposedly happened, some people looked into OT and found a few lines that they considered were the prophecy.

No, no, no. It’s the exact opposite, the biblical meta-narrative. Yay, I get to do my “It’s not the scattered proof texts” long read (as I said earlier, derived from NTW).

Firstly, in the same way as saying “Umbrella, ella. ella” points to a whole song, a quoted phrase points to a whole section of the OT. When Jesus said ”My God, why have You forsaken me”, he’s not saying God has left Him, but referring to the whole of Psalm 22, where suffering leads to humanity, including the dead, being blessed from suffering.

Secondly, the metanarrative of the Bible. Think of it as a play with a number of acts.
Adam and Eve mess up.
Abraham is told his descendents will clear up the mess.
Moses does a people released from captivity thing
Israel keeps messing up.
The prophets talk about God to the rescue, suffering involved somewhere, and a new Kingdom of God to come
Jesus as Israel does the job Israel was given to do, sets up the Kingdom of God. People can be part of it now, and in the full version in the the future.

Now would be a good time to read Psalm 22, because it’s there. It talks about the history of Israel, coming to an earth-shattering point, then a future in which all will worship God. That’s how you do true prophecy.
It’s the Big Picture

[Vicki Q]

You being happy that a prediction failed because the new prediction includes you ( a brave assumption on your part, btw )

No, I’m blissfully happy for the extra people getting in to the Kingdom of Heaven. Not about me.

 Personally, I put much less stock in the fantasy of a shiny new earth than in taking care of the one we have - which...to my mind, sounds a whole hell of alot more responsible and respectful of both the earth, and whoever allegedly made it.

Here we can agree. Next time you get a right wing Xian talking down saving the earth, just point out that in Genesis humanity was given stewardship of the earth “to work it and take care of it.", not ownership. It’s God’s earth.
The difference being that stewardship means looking after something responsibly, so by destroying the environment our MAGA type is committing a serious sin.

.  What if I told you I had 500 nameless (and now dead) witnesses to breaking every track record ever set?  No miracles there, mind you, I'm just a really fast guy.  Believe me?  

But Paul was getting beaten up in a horrendous way regularly for what he believed. He will die for it. Read 2 Corinthians 11, and given the religious reality of C1 Mediterranean world, this is exactly what we expect to happen to him.
You’re just posting stuff on a message board.

And any historical evidence that doesn’t fit just gets ignored? Even though it’s a mere 20 years after the event and most of the 500 are available to be talked to?
Line them up in a court of law and ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ would be a formality.

you're going to need to figure out whether you have a blueprint for the future on your hands - reducing the truth of all of this to a mechanical exercise - or if you also see some issues that might lead other rational people to conclude that you're wrong...but you have faith in it nonetheless.

There’s no figuring to be done. A world in which people are effectively forced to toe the line by overwhelming evidence denies all free will and choice, and a world in which all traces of God are removed is like having a building with no entrance.
What’s wanted is something between the two, a world in which following Christ leads to some pretty astonishing things, which as I see it is how things are.

You're just telling us that you're glad it did fail...you see?

Hate to point this out, but a prophecy with no time limit can’t fail. It might happen tomorrow.
Especially where the longer things get left, the more people get into the Kingdom of God.



Anyway, I’ll wish you all a happy Christmas!!!

[Paleophyte]

Jesus as Israel does the job Israel was given to do, sets up the Kingdom of God. People can be part of it now, and in the full version in the the future.

Except he doesn't. It's nice propaganda, but that never actually happens. What happens is... Nothing. The Roman occupation continues, Israel remains oppressed, wine and honey don't flow in the streams, and Jesus gets his dumb ass tacked to an upright. Exit Stage Left. The Roman occupation will continue another 3 or 4 decades while any church in Jerusalem fades into obscurity, ending in the revolt, destruction of the temple, and diaspora. As salvation goes, that's a bit lacking.

Calling that the Kingdom of God isn't an act of faith. It's just blindly ignoring reality.

[Mister Agenda]

I LIKE to use my free will, if I have it, to believe things which are supported by evidence. I don't HAVE to. There's a crap ton of Creationisists and flate earthers who have no trouble whatsoever disbelieving things which we have overwhelming evidence for.

The idea that evidence overrides free will is not demonstrated. Heck, in the OT the Israelites during the Exodus were supposedly shown undeniable miracles left and right and were doubting again by the next chapter. Unsurprising to a skeptic, since the available evidence doesn't support the Israelites having ever been in bondage in Egypt or the Exodus happening. It's just a story made up during the Babylonian captivity.

[Mister Agenda]

Anyway, I’ll wish you all a happy Christmas!!!

And a Merry Christmas to you, Vicki! We may disagree on pretty much everything in this thread, but I respect your engagement and sweet temper.

[The Grand Nudger]

You being happy that a prediction failed because the new prediction includes you ( a brave assumption on your part, btw )

No, I’m blissfully happy for the extra people getting in to the Kingdom of Heaven. Not about me.

...and still, we have ourselves a predictive failure.  

Hate to point this out, but a prophecy with no time limit can’t fail. It might happen tomorrow.
Especially where the longer things get left, the more people get into the Kingdom of God.

......and we continue to have a predictive failure, now you're telling us you're cool with it failing in perpetuity. Being okay with something failing -for reasons- and a thing not failing are not interchangeable.

Anyway, I’ll wish you all a happy Christmas!!!

Yeah, you too.

As for the rest, either you have faith, or you have evidence. If you have evidence, faith is moot. If you have faith, then evidence is moot. I can say this hundreds of ways....but it does get boring.