How it is Supposed to Work

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 
- All the things I am saying about Islam works for religion in general. It also works on evangelical Christians in a way:
 

---

 
https://www.texastribune.org/2025/05/24/...e-bill-10/
 
- The word “God” is not mentioned in the US constitution. The US is a state that does not have a religion. Therefore US schools cannot teach children about the 10 commandments or anything else.
 
So this is something I can totally relate to. It’s also happening in Eastern Europe. It’s also happening here. This is not a crusade but there are people in the US who believe that their country should be a “Christian” country. You all probably know more about these evangelical approaches much better than I do.
 
- So all that I say applies to these guys too. Spirituality is an extremely personal and individual matter. All of its mechanisms are located inside of us not outside. So personally: I think I would be very angry with this 2025 law that was adopted in Texas. And even from here: I am not OK with the cancelation of the Roe v. Wade Law in 2022.
 
What I am saying is that you have to watch out for these guys. For me these are forms of organized evil. A group of people uniting and conspiring as a group to dictate what they see as right to the rest of the population or to the rest of the world. That’s exactly the way the Mullah’s of Iran are organizing.
 
My idea on that is that there should not be any “cosa nostra” style religious (or spiritual) organizations who are making decisions for all of us behind closed doors. I think it’s extremely arrogant for a group of indoctrinated people to even decide that their path is simply the true path and that everybody has to accept this one way or the other. Emperors of the past did not have that kind of authority if you see what I mean.
 

---

 
So that’s what I am referring to as Ragnarök. I think it is possible that the Saga’s were referring to our present time with all those frost giants attacking Asgard and killing the Gods one by one. To me it represents all those circle of power working for the interest or accordingly with the convictions of a limited number of people who are destroying all that is important to the common good one strike after another. (The Gods representing all the positive forces who are keeping our world together in one piece).

No, the Eddas were not referring to today’s situation vis a vis religion. That’s a bloody stupid contention.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Let me share a nicely made website for those willing to learn more about “The Twilight or Fate of the Gods”:
 
https://www.mythic-harmonies.com/norse-m...the-world/
 
Personally I see a great deal of symbolism in the theology of ancient cultures. In some cases, it is like ancient people are talking to us directly as if they wanted to warn us about what lays in the future.
 
Right now I am reading Naomi Klein’s book called “This Changes Everything”. The book is about climate change and how we managed not to do anything substantial about it in the four decades after we knew with certainty that climate change was real and that it was coming.
 
The answer is: Greed. Everyone wants to be the boy or girl with the most pie (and the Sagas refer to this as well). So what happened is huge petrochemical companies doing everything they can to maintain their business model and groups of scientists, politicians even environmental protection organizations working with them so that their Billion dollar industries keeps running (even if that means killing us all).
 
Existentially, these are “nothing” as defined by existential philosophers like Sartre. These are the Giants, threatening to destroy the very fabric of our world (Ydrassil itself – the tree that carries and supports all the worlds in the Norse cosmos).
 
And the Gods, our gods are justice, democracy, secularism, the right to live in a healthy and safe environment, universal healthcare, access to education, women’s rights over their own bodies, the rule based international order or even space cooperation between major powers…
 
The list goes on and on. And those giants are there to destroy all of this like Fenrir swallowing the sun or Jormungandr killing Thor (the favorite God of north men).
 
And one element I like about this story is that the Gods will go to this war anyway. Despite Odin knowing from the beginning that they are set to fail. That’s a very Viking interpretation of courage:
 
- Courage does not mean courage in a winnable war but courage in a war that is impossible to win.
 
/ So again: What if these people truly saw what’s happening to our world today and wanted to warn us about it?
 
(This is just an open question, everyone can have an opinion of his own)

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Let me share a nicely made website for those willing to learn more about “The Twilight or Fate of the Gods”:
 
https://www.mythic-harmonies.com/norse-m...the-world/
 
Personally I see a great deal of symbolism in the theology of ancient cultures. In some cases, it is like ancient people are talking to us directly as if they wanted to warn us about what lays in the future.
 
Right now I am reading Naomi Klein’s book called “This Changes Everything”. The book is about climate change and how we managed not to do anything substantial about it in the four decades after we knew with certainty that climate change was real and that it was coming.
 
The answer is: Greed. Everyone wants to be the boy or girl with the most pie (and the Sagas refer to this as well). So what happened is huge petrochemical companies doing everything they can to maintain their business model and groups of scientists, politicians even environmental protection organizations working with them so that their Billion dollar industries keeps running (even if that means killing us all).
 
Existentially, these are “nothing” as defined by existential philosophers like Sartre. These are the Giants, threatening to destroy the very fabric of our world (Ydrassil itself – the tree that carries and supports all the worlds in the Norse cosmos).
 
And the Gods, our gods are justice, democracy, secularism, the right to live in a healthy and safe environment, universal healthcare, access to education, women’s rights over their own bodies, the rule based international order or even space cooperation between major powers…
 
The list goes on and on. And those giants are there to destroy all of this like Fenrir swallowing the sun or Jormungandr killing Thor (the favorite God of north men).
 
And one element I like about this story is that the Gods will go to this war anyway. Despite Odin knowing from the beginning that they are set to fail. That’s a very Viking interpretation of courage:
 
- Courage does not mean courage in a winnable war but courage in a war that is impossible to win.
 
/ So again: What if these people truly saw what’s happening to our world today and wanted to warn us about it?
 
(This is just an open question, everyone can have an opinion of his own)

Again, the Eddas (they’re not ‘sagas’, by the way) have nothing to do with the world today. They are not in any wise prophetic, nor were they ever meant to be. What you’re doing is taking your own view of the world and trying to hammer Norse mythology to fit into it.

You’re a very silly person.

Boru

[Angrboda]

[Belacqua]

What if these people truly saw what’s happening to our world today and wanted to warn us about it?

I don't think it's reasonable to say that the authors of the Eddas and the sagas knew what would happen in the 21st century. I don't think that was their aim.

We can certainly say, though, that they thought long and hard about what it looks like when an organized destructive force is heading your way, and there is no realistic hope for defeating it. And to this extent what they had to say can be of great interest to people today. 

You are correct to say that the writings of ancient cultures contains all kinds of symbolism. And allegory and metaphor and synecdoche and every other kind of literary trope you can name. These things invite new interpretations which keep the stories relevant. 

Your connection -- between the oncoming of the Great Winter in the Norse mythology, and the inevitable Global Heating in our own time -- makes a lot of sense. We see it coming, we know who's doing it, we know that good people want to stop it, yet we also know that none of the good people can possibly succeed against the powers that bring it about. So we can ask, as the Norse authors did, in the face of certain defeat, what should we do? And I think their answer, that we should keep fighting anyway, despite knowing that we will lose, is not a bad answer. 

There's a reason why we still benefit from reading these old stories. So for example Slavoj Zizek did a close reading of the Greek tragedy Antigone in one of his books. Though the play has been analyzed every which way for a couple of millennia now, his version is well worth reading. Literature like that is pretty much inexhaustible, and each new reading, without erasing the readings that came before, enriches the meaning and depth of the play. 

We sometimes come across people who say they know the real and true and only meaning of an ancient story, and they know exactly what the original author intended, and any other reading is a waste of time. These people are attempting to shut down an important function of literature. 

From the web site you linked to I learned that (according to some authors) after the final defeat of the gods there will be a renewal. It comes across as almost optimistic -- that the hopeless current condition will be wiped away and people can start fresh. It reminds me of something I was told on one of these Internet forums: that Global Heating isn't really so bad, because it won't bring about complete human extinction, only the total fall of human civilization. And then I guess we can make all the same mistakes again, since it seems unlikely that anyone will learn from history.

[Belacqua]

At least one Edda and several Norse sagas have dragons in them. They don't need more.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

At least one Edda and several Norse sagas have dragons in them. They don't need more.

I believe it's Leo's post that was referred to, not Norse mythic literature.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Bellaqua:
 
- You seem to be the only one who understands me
 
This “renewal” thing is also present in the more genuine readings of the Quran. It is said that one world will end and another will be born (just as is it told in the Sagas and predicted in many other cultures like the famous Maya Calendar for instance). These were the oral traditions of these ancient people. Since writing wasn’t so widespread at the time the stories were transferred from one generation to the next. Just like the Iliad and the Odyssey. So assuming that all of it is some sort of gibberish fiction of some unevolved society is an extreme position if you ask me.
 
   Of course there was some meaning to it. I know you are a climate sceptic so you may want to check this book if you are still a sceptic after last week’s heat wave all over Europe:   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heat_W..._You_First
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
Are you guys bored or simply not interested in what I have to say?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Bellaqua:
 
- You seem to be the only one who understands me
 
This “renewal” thing is also present in the more genuine readings of the Quran. It is said that one world will end and another will be born (just as is it told in the Sagas and predicted in many other cultures like the famous Maya Calendar for instance). These were the oral traditions of these ancient people. Since writing wasn’t so widespread at the time the stories were transferred from one generation to the next. Just like the Iliad and the Odyssey. So assuming that all of it is some sort of gibberish fiction of some unevolved society is an extreme position if you ask me.
 
   Of course there was some meaning to it. I know you are a climate sceptic so you may want to check this book if you are still a sceptic after last week’s heat wave all over Europe:   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heat_W..._You_First
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
Are you guys bored or simply not interested in what I have to say?

The two are not mutually exclusive. 

So assuming that all of it is some sort of gibberish fiction of some unevolved society is an extreme position if you ask me.

And isn’t it a good thing no one here is doing that? A truly extreme position is yours that Snorri Sturulson was a prophet, a psychic, or a mystic.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

So again: What if these people truly saw what’s happening to our world today and wanted to warn us about it?
 
(This is just an open question, everyone can have an opinion of his own)

They didn't.  Just like the prophecies of the old testament, the eddic myths are then-current social commentary.  They weren't seeing what was happening to us today, they were talking about what was happening to them, then.  Insomuch as we can see similarities between their predicament and our own...it's far more likely that this is our common humanity bubbling up in our endless conflicts...than it is the product of a precognitive author. As above, the man responsible for alot of what we know is snorri sturluson. He was a politician and a folklorist. We do have at least one of the sources he directly quoted from word for word...but most of it was oral history.

Just as a point of amusement..if there were norse precognitives seeing what must then be fated future events it doesn't seem to have helped them much. Their society collapsed and was replaced.